Swiss new minaret ban

[padraig (u.s.)]

you're ignoring certain realities to make the 'conflict' look even handed, & end up blaming the victim = nice!...also there is an obvious power disparity; a small minority of socially excluded immigrants are not in a position to oppress anyone (or, in many cases, to improve their own situation or achieve integration), on the other hand, a small minority of confused and hateful xenophobes clearly is in a position to help facilitate integration or spoil it...

I thought I made it very clear that this was, in fact, exactly what I was not doing. but I guess one can only include so many disclaimers. I think you're confusing blame with analysis - no one's "blaming" anyone, or at least I'm not. you did see that literally everyone agrees with you that the minaret ban is both stupid & abhorrent, right?

the issue propelling this fear isn't really - or at least not solely, & probably not mainly - that actual small minority of immigrants. that is, there will always be xenophobia & racism, but their effects are greatly amplified by the larger context in this case. I suspect this vote against minarets isn't really a vote against Muslims in Switzerland so much as a register of various deep-seated concerns - political, economic, religious, cultural (I refer again back to the town hall meetings here in the U.S.). of course, we live in the real world & unfortunately when these concerns manifest themselves as xenophobic attitudes & policies immigrants get the short end of the stick. which is obv not a new story, or one confined to Europe.

I also think you're conflating the pundits with the people they goad into voting their fears. "confused" certainly applies to the latter but not all of the former. I think they're anything but confused, in fact; otherwise they wouldn't be able to marshal votes so effectively for what are essentially, AFAIU, fringe beliefs. look, when the West has just spent the last decade fighting two hotly debated wars in Muslim countries (not counting other hotspots like Somalia) , when AQ-style terrorism is a real (if awfully overblown) thing, when a tremendous # of young Muslims are increasingly alienated from the societies they live in, it's just silly to pretend this is all in the minds of angsty White Europeans. tho of course you're free to continue doing so.

this identity crisis does not occur in the minds of immigrants

the only thing I can say is that is absolutely 100% wrong. not only about Muslim immigrants in Europe, but about immigrants in new cultures anywhere. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise; identity crises are kind of a fundmental aspect of immigration.

 

[grizzleb]

The problem with the idea of integration is that implies that there is a 'correct British' way of living, when thats plainly not true at all. Should everyone who lives in this country like x music, like x food, drink x, go to x church? Nah, because that's ridiculous for both sides, and it implies that these things have any meaning in the first instance. Good manners, and obeying the actual laws of a country are really all you want, but even then, I break laws all the time. Fuck this idea that there is a problem with integration, we have a problem 'integrating' people born here, and I dont just mean the buzz word 'underclass' - the jew of noughties British politics, but also your Bollingdon club fucknuts. We're not a cohesive social body in the first instance. There's no integrated and unintegrated.

No no, I'd rather have some non-English speaking albanian who does mindless shite no-one else would do for shit wages living here than some of the 'British' people I meet on a daily basis. But the point is I don't get to choose, and thank fuck.

 

[vimothy]

I suppose I'm a stuck record at this point, but I've always found Olivier Roy and Philip Jenkins' work to be of tremendous help understanding the relationship between fundamentalist Islam (or neo-fundamentalism, if, like Roy, you'd prefer) and modern Europe. Though of course, one must move carefully in waters as trecherous as these...

 

[sufi]

the only thing I can say is that is absolutely 100% wrong. not only about Muslim immigrants in Europe, but about immigrants in new cultures anywhere. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise; identity crises are kind of a fundmental aspect of immigration.

true, but that's a different identity crisis, personalised and internalised - immigrant communities may also have crises while they establish their identity in diaspora, but that too is a different story

this identity crisis is about european (swiss in this case) 'identity', which immigrants are excluded from to a greater or lesser extent depending how it is defined by the majority - the only impact that immigrants can make on that identity is by numbers as they are generally systematically excluded from the power structures (economic, political, academic ...) that define swissness
e.g. tariq ramadan's (a high profile wealthy posh swiss muslim) expulsion from his post as integration adviser at erasmus euroversity!

 

[vimothy]

I wonder just how many minarets there are in Switzerland? Anyway, the process seems to be an episode in a dynamic that is real, at least as real as these words or an episode of Newsnight. Europe absorbs "Muslims". "Muslims" become something else (though still, confusingly, Muslims). Europeans get a little tense. I think that this is perfectly natural in general, if rather stupid and petty in this specific instance.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The problem with the idea of integration is that implies that there is a 'correct British' way of living, when thats plainly not true at all. Should everyone who lives in this country like x music, like x food, drink x, go to x church? Nah, because that's ridiculous for both sides, and it implies that these things have any meaning in the first instance. Good manners, and obeying the actual laws of a country are really all you want, but even then, I break laws all the time. Fuck this idea that there is a problem with integration, we have a problem 'integrating' people born here, and I dont just mean the buzz word 'underclass' - the jew of noughties British politics, but also your Bollingdon club fucknuts. We're not a cohesive social body in the first instance. There's no integrated and unintegrated.

On the other hand, someone who's lived in a country for years and doesn't speak a word of the language, because they never meet anyone who speaks it, is clearly less well integrated (FSVO 'integrated') that someone who can actually talk to a doctor, nurse, copper, lawyer, post-office clerk or whoever without requiring a translator. Of course, this applies as much to fat perma-sunburnt Brits on the Costa del Sol as to anyone else...

No no, I'd rather have some non-English speaking albanian who does mindless shite no-one else would do for shit wages living here than some of the 'British' people I meet on a daily basis. But the point is I don't get to choose, and thank fuck.

Nihi-lolz.

 

[grizzleb]

But the point is that the large majority of immigrants can and do speak english after a reasonably short period of time living here, I know from my own experience. That isn't simply what you and padraig were talking about.

'Failure of countries to deal with immigrant population' and 'failure of immigrant population to integrate' sounds much more vague and to me expressed a more general malaise, mistrust and suspicion about 'their' culture in general. Being able to speak the language is not the only thing you and padraig mean by this. Nihilolz? What's nihilistic about that?

 

[baboon2004]

The problem with the idea of integration is that implies that there is a 'correct British' way of living, when thats plainly not true at all. Should everyone who lives in this country like x music, like x food, drink x, go to x church? Nah, because that's ridiculous for both sides, and it implies that these things have any meaning in the first instance. Good manners, and obeying the actual laws of a country are really all you want, but even then, I break laws all the time. Fuck this idea that there is a problem with integration, we have a problem 'integrating' people born here, and I dont just mean the buzz word 'underclass' - the jew of noughties British politics, but also your Bollingdon club fucknuts. We're not a cohesive social body in the first instance. There's no integrated and unintegrated.

well put. the idea of a cohesive 'British'/'Swiss' culture in the first place is a false construct.

 

[vimothy]

But the real problems of integration cannot be brushed off by saying, "it's not rational", or "integration is a red herring", even if both those statements are true. People can vote, and will do so accordingly.

 

[grizzleb]

A small number of idiots will vote for extremist parties. Because some people are idiots and will use their democratic rights to vote against pro-immigration policies doesn't mean we should automatically become fucking morons. If enough people disagree, then we'll see change. Until then, FUCK the scaremongerers, why we should make concessions to them I dunno. Would you say that about 'the jewish problem'?

 

[vimothy]

I would say that you are far from base if you think that passing off asinine comments about the non-reality of social aggregates in interwebz forums would have prevented the holocaust. But perhaps I'm just another fucking automoron who lacks your steely commitment to the world as it really is.

 

[grizzleb]

Well, let me put it in another way, how do you propose to tackle this problem if the way you view the problem is deeply flawed?

But the real problems of integration cannot be brushed off by saying, "it's not rational", or "integration is a red herring", even if both those statements are true. People can vote, and will do so accordingly.

What is 'the real problem' of integration then?

 

[sufi]

i wonder just how many minarets there are in switzerland?

4

 

[Mr. Tea]

But the point is that the large majority of immigrants can and do speak english after a reasonably short period of time living here, I know from my own experience. That isn't simply what you and padraig were talking about.

'Failure of countries to deal with immigrant population' and 'failure of immigrant population to integrate' sounds much more vague and to me expressed a more general malaise, mistrust and suspicion about 'their' culture in general.

Well if you want to put it those terms, yes there are aspects of 'their' culture I don't like very much, and I think there are some areas like women's rights and attitudes towards gays where a bit more of a compromise with mainstream values in Britain would be no bad thing. I'd like it if the Bangladeshis who make up the majority (or at least plurality) where I live didn't treat the streets and pavement as one giant dustbin. Do you disagree? That's not a challenge btw, I'm just interested.

Nihilolz? What's nihilistic about that?

I mean it would be nice if your hypothetical Albanian didn't have to work for 'shit' wages, or it things in Albania weren't so screwed up that working for peanuts over here is better than anything he could hope for at home. But I guess this is pretty far into the realms of fantasy...

 

[vimothy]

Well, let me put it in another way,

Yeah, sorry, no need for me to be a twat about it.

I think that the first thing to do is understand and describe the situation. But this is not simple. In fact it is a massive and almost impossible task, but one that is necessary. However, it's not the case that one must replicate the racism of the few (or many) in order to understand it.

Some people are arseholes, but there is also a mutual reconstitution of identities at work here, which is reciprocal, dynamic and should not be ignored.

What is 'the real problem' of integration then?

Well, one real problem is the minaret ban. Obviously there are many others, like mistreatment of immigrants. I'm sure that you could or anyone else come up with a healthy list given a small amount of time.

4

Jeeeeesus...

 

[sufi]

What is 'the real problem' of integration then?

'integration' is itself a contentious and contested concept
often immigrant and host communities have different ideas about what it entails, and different countries do it different ways (e.g. US melting pot vs. UK multiculchralism) or attempt assimiliation instead, so there are lots of different definitions and approaches to achieving it.
abolishing minarets is not one of them

 

[grizzleb]

Well if you want to put it those terms, yes there are aspects of 'their' culture I don't like very much, and I think there are some areas like women's rights and attitudes towards gays where a bit more of a compromise with mainstream values in Britain would be no bad thing. Do you disagree? That's not a challenge btw, I'm just interested.

Well I mean of course, those things are things which I would like to see people everywhere come closer to a moderate position on. The difficulty is that you conflate a whole community into the same catagory - I know plenty of muslims who are chill with gay people, respect women, still have their culture, etc, and I know some white people who are ludicrously hmophobic and crass, slap their g/f about etc. This is what I mean by 'their culture'. From one perspective, my culture (coming from a largely roman catholic area, though not my parents) I would seem to be someone who supports the spread of AIDs in Africa and tacitly supports child abuse. This patently isn't true, though elements of a social grouping that I in some senses belong to do have these characteristics.
Also, I think that alot of these 'insider problems' - like the idea of the underclass that is currently touted around, as well as muslim, come from a kind of envy about what 'they' have, which 'we' have lost. When I worked in farmfoods in a scheme/estate, you would get people coming in of all ages, all chatting to each other, friendly, no-where else have I ever felt such a strong sense of community - yet these people are the ones denigrated as 'underclass' - when one of the accepted ills of our age is that, generally speaking our sense of community is rapidly dissapearing. So whilst we long for the community, we attribute a group in society who it could be argued, do have stronger community ties as being 'the problem'. When infact (for example) binge-drinking is a classless pursuit, everyone does it on a saturday night. Also, in the case of muslims, alot of the muslim people I know have really strong ties with the rest of their extended family - another thing that we perceive to be in decline in modern Britain.

Anyway, I'm just thinking aloud here...I don't actually have any solutions to these problems.

I mean it would be nice if this hypothetical Albanian didn't have to work for 'shit' wages, or it things in Albania weren't so screwed up that working for peanuts over here is better than anything he could hope for at home. But I guess this is pretty far into the realms of fantasy...

Heheh, yeah it sucks eh?

 

[vimothy]

So one major issue is the reconstitution of Muslim (or "Muslim") identity with regards to Europe. The flowering of fundamentalist Islam in Europe is one major bone of contention for the likes of the BNP (e.g. the quote in the poster above). But I read this fundamentalism as a function of "Muslim" integration, not a factor mitigating against it. I.e., it is a sign of success not failure. This is doubtless rather confusing for all involved, but as Roy says, that is "quite logical so far as religion is concerned and so long as God will let humans speak on his behalf".

And just as integration is between social aggregates is contested, so too are the defintions of those aggregates: what is a Muslim, what is a European. Just because these are vague and potentially unrealisable constructs, it doesn't mean they have less agency than their pomo critiques.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Well I mean of course, those things are things which I would like to see people everywhere come closer to a moderate position on. The difficulty is that you conflate a whole community into the same catagory...

No, you conflated it (knowingly and for rhetorical effect, I hope), when you mentioned "'their' culture" - which is why I kept the inverted commas when I replied to you. I'm well aware that no group of people is a wholly homogenous bloc, obviously. But all the same there are common cultural values and perceptions that people from a certain part of the world will almost invariably share. For example, I have an Arab friend who's no more a Muslim than I am, but he still doesn't eat pork because it's simply not a food he's used to eating and he has a deep-seated prejudice against it that he's happy to admit is entirely irrational and contingent. Similarly, I celebrate Christmas and say 'bless you' when someone sneezes, but that doesn't make me some Bible-bashing Jesus nut (edit: or even, to be less obnoxious for a second, a Christian).

I suppose one thing we can say with a degree of certainty is that Muslims in Britain generally don't contribute to our binge-drinking stats...

 

[grizzleb]

I didn't mean you personally sorry if that sounded confrontational, I meant the general you. All people from Arab countries are not pork-haters a priori.

It's a really negative thing IMO, to say that 'Islam is a culture which disrespects women' for example, because in some parts of the community a hijab is worn. From one angle of course, it looks like women are treated as second class citizens in that way, by being forced to cover up - but from another point of view, mainstream British culture also treats women as second class citizens by encouraging them to be a certain shape (eg these (extremely popular) magazines I see every day, where they pound celebs for being too chubby, too skinny, too this, too that (horrible!)), by peddling the idea that their body is something that you are expected to use ("flaunt it"), also, the tyranny of freedom, the idea that women are free to dress whatever they want in our society when that clearly isn't true - if you immediatley find another cultures dress laws suspect and evidence of it being a negative culture. From the opposite angle I can see how it may be freeing not to be judged on your looks all the time wearing a hijab **(of course, I'm speaking generally, it's not a 'neutral' item, and alot of the time I do find it distasteful, and don't like the idea that women are domineered by males in parts of the islamic community - I'm just wondering about how we can look at various cultural artifacts in different lights).