"Owning"

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
:rolleyes:
projecting onto woebot that when he sees the word 'gangs' he is visualising black Americans is an assumption no?

That response has nothing to do with the facts of gang membership or their ethnic make up.

The same regarding the reaction to the Moore comic- I would suggest reading it before shouting 'racist'. a lot.

I did read it.

Aren't you the one who was quoting fucking Durkheim on social constructedness in the other thread?

You're really letting your side down, brother.
 
D

droid

Guest
i think you have the entire right to be upset, 100 per cent, about the racism you suffered - sorry if my previous post wasn't clear. But please don't misquote: 'it's not the same thing, obv' (what I said) and 'it's not exactly the same thing' (what i didn't say) are entirely different.

On a complete tangent, my Mum was quite frequently asked if she was Chinese cos of the shape of her eyes too, when she was younger in 70s England. Made me think about how little I know of her side of the family (cos she never tells me) - it's quite possible that I could have a Chinese ancestor somewhere along the line...

Sorry Baboon, didn't mean to misquote you. My great grandmother was Chinese or Japanese, Ive never been able to find out for sure. Kind of a family secret I think. My little brother used to get bullied a lot too as he has even more pronounced Asian features. Kinda stopped for me about the age of 15, but people still ask me 'where I'm from' occasionally. I imagine my son will get the same.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this to anyone besides close friends before now, but race doesn't usually get brought up as a validation of opinion. Is there an ID card I can get for these kinda threads in future? Maybe Nomad could help with the racial classification? 'Looks more Asian than he is' or 'octachink' or something. :)
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Sorry Baboon, didn't mean to misquote you. My great grandmother was Chinese or Japanese, Ive never been able to find out for sure. Kind of a family secret I think. My little brother used to get bullied a lot too as he has even more pronounced Asian features. Kinda stopped for me about the age of 15, but people still ask me 'where I'm from' occasionally. I imagine my son will get the same.

I don't think I've ever mentioned this to anyone besides close friends before now, but race doesn't usually get brought up as a validation of opinion. Is there an ID card I can get for these kinda threads in future? Maybe Nomad could help with the racial classification? 'Looks more Asian than he is' or 'octachink' or something. :)

No worries. Yeah, family secrets are a peculiar thing, aren't they - was talking about that at length, and their long-lasting impact on people (in so many diffrent ways, obv depending upon secret in question), just yesterday. I'd love for there to be a service to know more about them, without having to rely upon your parents' skewed version....

Is there no way of getting anyone in your family to talk about the subject? A bit annoying if not, if only for pure curiosity.
 

grizzleb

Well-known member
My grandparents on my dad's side used to go to religious groups to speak in toungues and shit. That freaked me right out when I heard that.
 
D

droid

Guest
No worries. Yeah, family secrets are a peculiar thing, aren't they - was talking about that at length, and their long-lasting impact on people (in so many diffrent ways, obv depending upon secret in question), just yesterday. I'd love for there to be a service to know more about them, without having to rely upon your parents' skewed version....

Is there no way of getting anyone in your family to talk about the subject? A bit annoying if not, if only for pure curiosity.

Yeah.. Unfortunately, I think the only people who really knew are dead. Certainly made for a confusing childhood though...
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Yeah.. Unfortunately, I think the only people who really knew are dead. Certainly made for a confusing childhood though...

I can imagine - i can understand how uncertainty/mystery like that would be difficult for a kid to digest. I have some of that myself for different reasons (unconnected with race, though what you said earlier in the thread has made me question why I have never even questioned those things said about my Mum, as in perhaps there is some East Asian blood in the family somewhere...I've always thought she was somehow slightly un-Celtic looking - she grew up in Wales - from photos of her when she was younger).

Edit: My g/f's roots (iranian, indian, pakistani, singaporean, oh, and a bit of georgian) make my musings seem somewhat mundane though!
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
My grandparents on my dad's side used to go to religious groups to speak in toungues and shit. That freaked me right out when I heard that.

ha - really? that's pretty fucking cool. :slanted:

Which country was this in?
 
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grizzleb

Well-known member
ha - really? that's pretty fucking cool. :slanted:

Which country was this in?
Pretty strange I know - that's pretty much all I know about it. I'm not particularly close with my dad's side of the family (mum and dad split up when I was a baby) so I seen them once or twice a year when I was wee, they always seemed very nice but very parochial haha. I might need to ask my dad about it next time I see him.
It was in Motherwell, Scotland. Haha. Very Wicker man. They're properly Catholic though, so it was within that framework. :slanted:
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Pretty strange I know - that's pretty much all I know about it. I'm not particularly close with my dad's side of the family (mum and dad split up when I was a baby) so I seen them once or twice a year when I was wee, they always seemed very nice but very parochial haha. I might need to ask my dad about it next time I see him.
It was in Motherwell, Scotland. Haha. Very Wicker man. They're properly Catholic though, so it was within that framework. :slanted:

I was gonna ask if it was Scotland actually- Wicker Man, Breaking the Waves - we all know what it's really like up there! Everyone talks about aquacrunk and Numbers, but really it's all just Tower of Babel shit...

If you can post a video of it on here, so much the better ;)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
in the end (of today i guess), do i think Alan Moore is racist against Chinese people?

not 100%. but i do think he (and/or who ever wrote it) fully realize that "Niggy" would not have been allowed to be printed --- and that was the point of this portion of the conversation. (as Droid himself conceded to or let slip, and Babs correctly pointed out)

i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.

do i, a member of the targeted ethnic group, have the right to find it offensive? yes i do. with or without knowing the history of Alan Moore's work or political allegiances or activities. in fact ANYONE has the right to be offended and have their voice heard without being called "uneducated", a "cretin", or a "prick".

do i think Droid is racist? no. but like his favorite author, he is not as sensitive to the harm that stereotyping can do as he should be. and his behavior in this thread is firmly on the fucked up side: "you are a moron if you think this is racist", etc.

do people have the right to disagree with my reading of this story? of course they do. and some here have given different perspectives and made me think and consider other angles, like Massrock.

all in all, i have only voiced my thoughts on what i perceive to be (partially or otherwise) racist literature. whether this perception is accurate or not, i have done no one any wrong in this thread, and deserve an apology for names called, and insults hurled.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Zhao - would you agree that the story is fundamentally a portrayal of racism rather than something where the racism is to be taken at face value? To me it seems very clear that the author is distanced from the content of the story by the deliberately archaic style and frankly by the fact that the obvious offensiveness of said content is something that no halfway intelligent author is going to be straightforwardly endorsing.

But this then gets you into murky waters - if we're talking about portrayals of racism, you've got a whole spectrum from obviously anti-racist stories with obviously evil puppy-kicking klansman villains through to simple, vicious, old-fashioned racism hiding under a thin patina of irony... I mean, we can't talk about racism to oppose it without representing it in some way, but the Moore comic seems to be in a more complicated space where it is to an extent about what the reader takes out of it as well as what the author put into it.
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
... I mean, we can't talk about racism to oppose it without representing it in some way,

Yeah I think that's really the crux point. If one's medium is comics (and it's definitely, definitely Moore's) then how do you talk about the horrific portrayal of, god, any person of 'other-nessticity' within the history of comics? God when I was little it was still Ok to give me this :

http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/sambo.htm

to read, and it was one of my favourite books. It's important to remember these depictions. The strongest way to do it - and the hardest as an artist - would be to portray it as it was, in all of its ways, I think. However hard that is to see or read, I think making it would be harder. It's all the more an indictment - and I'm sure it was not lost on Moore - that they did print it.

I'd say Mickey Rooney's 'portrayal' in Chinatown would be the most offensive thing I can think of, and one which says much more really. Good article here :

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/18/18_yellow.html
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
There's been a great deal of goalpost-shifting in this thread. On the first page someone mentioned "gamers", namely people who spend a lot of time playing video games, especially online multiplayer ones. To me, that brings to mind the image of someone who is probably male and probably a teenager, of no specific ethnicity or social class (globally, the most game-mad country is South Korea, remember). The male-teen image is of course a stereotype but probably not an unjustified one, I think. Then gamers became generic "nerds" or "geeks" who subsequently crystalised into grown men (implicitly assumed to be white) with master's degrees in electrical engineering building superweapons for BAE Systems or what-have-you. That's quite a jump.


  • Firstly, for what reason does an enthusiasm for video games make someone great at programming or impart any other skill attractive to an employer? I've completed both Half-Life games on 'hard' and I still can't program for shit. In the same way that the average boy racer isn't necessarily an expert auto engineer and that you don't need to be a freshwater ecologist to go fishing at the weekend. In fact if you're glued to a screen and bashing merry hell out of your keyboard every spare minute you get, that's not going to have a positive effect on your school or university grades, with concomittant impact on your overall chances of getting a well-paid job.
  • Secondly, you don't even need a PC to game online these days, as modern consoles are build with multiplayer internet gaming in mind.
  • Thirdly, the falling price of computer hardware and broadband means you don't have to be especially privileged (by developed-country standards) to get online, whether your main interest is gaming or whatever.
I think the words "nerd" and "geek" are so vague and mutable as to be practically useless here. Says the guy posting on a forum at 12.30 am...

Points taken.



It seems in the meantime the jumping-down-each-others-throats structure of this thread has gone even further...
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
projecting onto woebot that when he sees the word 'gangs' he is visualising black Americans is an assumption no?

No, it's not an "assumption", it's a reality. Woebot and others were talking about a word that originated in American slang, and most probably, black American slang, wikipedia notwithstanding. What else was I to "assume" he meant in the context, when he brought up gangs? That this was some sort of word that originated from gangs on a distant planet, where there is no social construction of race?

The fact that gangs are largely minority-based is simply a fact in this culture. Unless, of course, you're "colorblind", like Stephen Colbert, so you can't "see" race.

Which is what your argument seems to amount to.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Yeah I think that's really the crux point. If one's medium is comics (and it's definitely, definitely Moore's) then how do you talk about the horrific portrayal of, god, any person of 'other-nessticity' within the history of comics?

It's important to remember these depictions. The strongest way to do it - and the hardest as an artist - would be to portray it as it was, in all of its ways, I think. However hard that is to see or read, I think making it would be harder. It's all the more an indictment - and I'm sure it was not lost on Moore - that they did print it.

well i think simply duplicating it, repeating it, is not only not enough, but very much problematic. especially for a medium whose audience consist largely of young, inexperienced, and impressionable minds.

honest question: how do you think "portraying it as it was" functions? do you think it sparks debate? do you think it reminds kids of a past that they don't remember? or is it simply the manufacturing of yet more racist imagery? (here i sound like a soccer mom but whatever) what do you think a 14 year old will get out of this story? how might it influence his behavior next day at school, toward perhaps the 1 East Asian kid in his class, no doubt already being picked on?

if we are going to look at context, the publishing house ABC's most popular title, Tom Strong, is a campy, retro, all american superhero, not so much appropriating as embodying the exact same kind of macho heroism of the 1950s or whatever era. there IS NO critical subtext, there IS NO apparent irony. other than perhaps a slight self consciousness in the writing style, the only twist is that he has a wife of Afro-Caribbean decent, and a half and half daughter.

TomStrong-.jpg


(don't necessarily want to get into the political ramifications of the classic shots-calling white dude with "ethnic" bride thing... not to mention with non-human servants which can be readily argued as stand ins for non-white slaves.)

seems to me the entire ABC brand is not so much parodying anything, but being that which Droid's camp would say it is parodying.

and the way i encountered this Chinky story was as a stand alone, self contained story within the giant sized ABC special, with no thematic relations to the stories which appear before or after it.

so this question:

Slothrop

Zhao - would you agree that the story is fundamentally a portrayal of racism rather than something where the racism is to be taken at face value?

of what I, a 35 year old man, who has taken a couple of Post Colonial Studies courses or at least read a few books on the subject, think is the ultimate aim of the story is almost entirely beside the point.

given the (lack of) context, what do you think the primary target audience of these books, probably something like age 9 - 18, would get from the story?

it is never black and white (no puns intended), but in my estimation, this is slipping into the area of perpetuating harmful stereotypes much more than any kind of shedding light on race relations.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
in the end (of today i guess), do i think Alan Moore is racist against Chinese people?

not 100%. but i do think he (and/or who ever wrote it) fully realize that "Niggy" would not have been allowed to be printed --- and that was the point of this portion of the conversation. (as Droid himself conceded to or let slip, and Babs correctly pointed out)

i don't think he or who ever wrote this story is as sensitive to the effects of depiction of racial stereotypes as he should be. far from it. whether it is tongue in cheek, ironic, or what EVER this story is supposed to be.

do i, a member of the targeted ethnic group, have the right to find it offensive? yes i do. with or without knowing the history of Alan Moore's work or political allegiances or activities. in fact ANYONE has the right to be offended and have their voice heard without being called "uneducated", a "cretin", or a "prick".

do i think Droid is racist? no. but like his favorite author, he is not as sensitive to the harm that stereotyping can do as he should be. and his behavior in this thread is firmly on the fucked up side: "you are a moron if you think this is racist", etc.

do people have the right to disagree with my reading of this story? of course they do. and some here have given different perspectives and made me think and consider other angles, like Massrock.

all in all, i have only voiced my thoughts on what i perceive to be (partially or otherwise) racist literature. whether this perception is accurate or not, i have done no one any wrong in this thread, and deserve an apology for names called, and insults hurled.

On this point, a professor of mine from grad school had some interesting comments. A film guy.

He was talking about the rape scene in The Accused, and different versions of blackface-as-shock-and-horror-for-white-benefit in films (he may have even used Bamboozled here? can't remember), and he said:

The problem with representations of violence (sexual and racial) in media is not that people without deep-seated race-based hatred lurking inside will see them and suddenly convert to racists; but nor will these images convert any racists from their views. The sole purpose they end up serving is to give white people who don't actively hate a reason to feel superior, ignoring the ways we are all complicit institutionalized oppression,while giving racists/misogynists a hate hard-on, basically. There's no other reason to depict this kind of thing, in his opinion.

It's the same reason why some people think there is no such thing as a "anti-war" movie...yadda yadda...

I'm not sure I agree totally with this, but it's worth considering.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
but hey, don't listen to me. i'm an uneducated stupid moron prick for mentioning any of this.

i guess if there were any justice in the world "nasty pieces of work" like me would be banned from the forum, banned from LIFE.
 
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