2013 > 013 > 130

[Benny Bunter]

It sounds to me like you know too much about the subject. I get where your coming from but why not just take the music for what it is instead of trying to work out how authentic it is and how well it fits into the nuum model (although admittedly the music is presenting itself as a very nuum sound) .

By your logic ( which im not necessarily disagreeing with) places like this forum are in fact damaging the music because of the endless discussion and the retrospective crystallisation of this music. Which is interesting because it shows that criticism doesnt exist in a vacuum and that the kind of theorising you are doing, ie. that jackin is more appealing because it has less respect for the past and is more idiotic, perhaps will encourage others to do the same, but then will they be authentically idiotic or just making fan-fiction idiocy?

I can enjoy both jackin and this stuff but I think theres more potential in this because jackin is starting from a pretty played out sound and this stuff is a bit fresher. I would say though, it needs less grime referencing because that does makes it come off sounding like a pastiche alot of the time.

well i think its fine for us lot to be discussing and criticising this stuff, but I think its fair to say most of the producers/artists I like aren't exactly forum-reading, theoretical types. They tend to just get on with it. I do reckon over-thinking things can be a problem for an artist but not really a critic.

 

[jorge]

well i think its fine for us lot to be discussing and criticising this stuff, but I think its fair to say most of the producers/artists I like aren't exactly forum-reading, theoretical types. They tend to just get on with it. I do reckon over-thinking things can be a problem for an artist but not really a critic.

yeah i would agree to a certain extent, in my own production I have been guilty of over thinking but i feel like im getting past that now. Also some of my favourite producers make what I would describe as well thought-out and detailed tunes which may seem overly studied to others, objekt and 2562 for example.

I dont think its clear cut at all though and most producers will have an internet presence and more than likely have a look at what people are saying on the forums. Also how do you know the forum-reading/theoretical habits of the producers you like?

 

[Benny Bunter]

I dunno, i just checked out that threnody mix from the recommendations on the first page and read the interview - he seems incredibly well-versed and articulate about early dubstep and grime and theorises about them in a way that you very rarely see from artists in grime, bassline, funky, jackin. And it strikes me that lots of the interviews you read with these guys are like this. Maybe its a post-burial thing?

Then I listened to the mix and it starts off with pure period piece mid-noughties dubstep. I flicked through the rest but it all just seemed so boring.

 

[Blackdown]

This idea that other genre's musicians are oblivious to their influences or don't think about their music isn't just offensive to generations of musicians, it's flawed bullshit Benny. It's fan fiction.

 

[Benny Bunter]

This idea that other genre's musicians are oblivious to their influences or don't think about their music isn't just offensive to generations of musicians, it's flawed bullshit Benny. It's fan fiction.

totally agree but i've never said that musicians are oblivious to their influences or don't think about their music. That would be stupid.

 

[Elijah]

Wheres the riddims at no more theory from Benny B please

 

[mistersloane]

slash. slash music.

 

[trilliam]

After having to sit through most of Saturdays (02/03/13) Boilerroom from New York, as my girlfriend was waiting for Nicolas Jaar to come on, I find myself appreciating the need to preserve this "UK" sound.

While some might say that the harking back / ripping off / re-hashing of 2006 Dubstep glory years or eski-grime is counter-productive / inward looking / overly-nostalgic it is something that needs to happen. It's obviously not just done in an unimaginative way, it's been improved, tweaked, twisted into some strain that for some reason or another didn't make itself apparent when the sounds of those genres were being found or discovered.

If there aren't people out there, sticking to their guns, promoting the sound that was born from an actual scene then you could find yourself in a situation that I'm listening to now. Where some of the most unimpressive music I've heard for a long time is being lauded and we're all expected to believe how brilliant it all is.

Big up Blackdown for being unwavering in his selection. Keysound could no doubt be a lot bigger than it is today if it decided to go down some bait paths, but instead it's become a home to an uncompromising array of sounds and truly talented producers, regardless of name.

lies

 

[said]

It sounds to me like you know too much about the subject. I get where your coming from but why not just take the music for what it is instead of trying to work out how authentic it is and how well it fits into the nuum model (although admittedly the music is presenting itself as a very nuum sound) .

By your logic ( which im not necessarily disagreeing with) places like this forum are in fact damaging the music because of the endless discussion and the retrospective crystallisation of this music. Which is interesting because it shows that criticism doesnt exist in a vacuum and that the kind of theorising you are doing, ie. that jackin is more appealing because it has less respect for the past and is more idiotic, perhaps will encourage others to do the same, but then will they be authentically idiotic or just making fan-fiction idiocy?

appreciate that this has been replied to, but i think this post (and others) go in pretty hard on benny quite unfairly. you can't listen to this 'for what it is' as if that's separate to a knowledge of nuum music. it is, whether you like it or not, hyper-referential to the london sound - photek not kerri chandler as someone said up thread. and surely it's completely reasonable to suggest that some artists' musics, and some sounds/genres/scenes/etc are shaped by varying levels of historical awareness? don't see how that denigrates anyone's artistic thoughtfulness or skill

having said that i actually much prefer this dark 130/blah stuff to jackin (tho i like jackin too). it feels archival rather than a full-blooded fresh nuum movement, which i think jackin could claim to be, and wen's post in here that it's good that it's a sound that doesn't get taken to the club much is def telling - BUT it's got it's own power for that. the boomkat review of the (amazing) keysound wen record had an absolutely sick line that sums up its power for me, and says a lot about how the sound works imo: "the ghosts of MCs past exhumed and condemned to roam the earth - hypemen as bogeymen." that's not exactly fwd. but it is brilliant.

i think its easy to get covertly hooked on this (reynoldsian?) concern for nuumness AND fwdness as some kind of critical schemata to measure stuff against - but for me its no criticism to say that the music might be doing something different to pure fwd energy.

 

[jimitheexploder]

I think you can find a thru line from the past with all genres. Just like this stuff has elements of grime, dubstep, funky, juke, garage, etc. Jackin' has elements of electro, bassline, euro house, electro house, tech house, blog house, dutch house, fidget, pop. I know which influences I find more played out personaly.

Do you think there is a case for saying some pople that have found jackin' in recent years wern't that familuar with say stuff like fidget, big room tech house, electro before? Or maybe just came to it because of Marcus Nasty or bassline... So those influences aren't playing as much on their minds when they heard jackin' so they see it as something really new. Where as they had been listening to grime and dubstep for years so are really familuar with its sounds so get a bit more crital about its use in newer music. I dunno, sounds like a dissensus problem rather than one of a lot of people. Its a bit inside out but I dunno, I kinda get that vibe from some people.

To me Jackin is a really obvious liniage from bassline finaly mixing into big room electro house sounds that where always prominent, well pretty much everywhere. It was bound to happen up in the north when bassline started to slow down a bit, since that electro sound would pick up the slack in the clubs since it was always around.

 

[jorge]

Was I being too harsh? i get where hes coming from and agree on a few things. was just highlighting that in a way he (/this forum) is guilty of the same thing he was criticising, ie being to knowledgeable and theoretical about music. And that while there is a difference between making music and criticising it, the two are very closely linked and its not a one way process, especially now that is done on the internet for all to see.

you can't listen to this 'for what it is' as if that's separate to a knowledge of nuum music. it is, whether you like it or not, hyper-referential to the london sound

Didnt say it was, I meant not discounting it purely because its not made 'authentically'. Your saying the same thing. Its mainly because its referential to the London sound that I like it. The same way alot of great dubstep references jungle and garage.

surely it's completely reasonable to suggest that some artists' musics, and some sounds/genres/scenes/etc are shaped by varying levels of historical awareness? don't see how that denigrates anyone's artistic thoughtfulness or skill

I pretty much said the opposite didnt I? that you shouldnt judge music on how aware someone is of the past. I dont think it necessarily hinders or helps you. He was saying that less historical knowledge, or at least knowledge gained on the internet makes more authentic music.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Didnt say it was, I meant not discounting it purely because its not made 'authentically'. Your saying the same thing. Its mainly because its referential to the London sound that I like it. The same way alot of great dubstep references jungle and garage.

He was saying that less historical knowledge, or at least knowledge gained on the internet makes more authentic music.

I never used this word.

 

[jorge]

I never used this word.

no, but that was kind of the implication wasnt it? Sorry for misquoting you. Authenticity is very problematic so perhaps it wasnt the right word to use but i think its related to what you were talking about. You were saying that it sounds like these producers have learned too much about the music through the internet

rather than people learning directly from other people in a more localised way, as used to happen a lot more it seems

and that this is why they dont sound right

i think this is related to authenticity isnt it?




.

 

[said]

Was I being too harsh? i get where hes coming from and agree on a few things. was just highlighting that in a way he (/this forum) is guilty of the same thing he was criticising, ie being to knowledgeable and theoretical about music. And that while there is a difference between making music and criticising it, the two are very closely linked and its not a one way process, especially now that is done on the internet for all to see.



Didnt say it was, I meant not discounting it purely because its not made 'authentically'. Your saying the same thing. Its mainly because its referential to the London sound that I like it. The same way alot of great dubstep references jungle and garage.

i should have been clearer because my comments were aimed at blackdown, secondline, elijah as much as you tbh, cos originally all i was trying to say that benny definitely wasn't totally wide of the mark at all, and that basically i think the fan fiction description has some kind of purchase - it's not just critical overthinking or w/e. i think people are misrepresenting benny's position as one that says "idiocy/lack of knowledge = better music", when all he's saying is that a certain naivete characterizes jackin, and provides it with certain strengths. guys like tom shorterz undoubtedly know their stuff (always posts loads of old speed garage/ukg/bits of strictly rhythm etc on facebook), but the basics of the sound are originated pretty unselfconsciously in bait electro and bassline - and, to me at least, that having come down through a localized, concentrated scene comes through in an interesting, mutated way thats not there in this 130 sound.

BUT maybe that's because there are very regular, actual jackin nights... which perhaps can't be said for this 130 stuff... yet? maybe jackin only feels less like fan fiction for the brute physical reason that it's more obviously dancefloor friendly, and entrenched (in the north at least) as dancefloor music. if dark 130 nights start up will that change things? it raises quite an interesting question about listening habits: do some people prefer to listen to nuum music mainly because they're interested, in a kind of sociological way, in keeping up with 'authentic' (not associating this with benny's position) uk dancefloor culture? and is that a bad thing?

 

[huffafc]

great thread and a fascinating debate that seems to apply to many musical moves/movements today.

I think there's a shared archival strategy between a lot of very different scenes right now, that parallels, but is fundamentally distinct from, the hyper-referential music making that has become the status quo across many genres and geographic locations.

I'm thinking of everything from the wierd scene in NYC to this keysound/130 stuff. In his article on the last Wierd party last week, Joshua Strawn wrote that "Wierd was a conservationist mo(ve)ment." (http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2013/02/the_wierd_has_b.html) Conservationist in the sense of preserving something of value seen to be present in a past scene and "very rare" today. not necessarily aesthetically conservative.

Rather than reveling in the freedom to reference anything, these kinds of scenes derive an aesthetic and even an ethic from their own reading of some, genre-specific musical/cultural archive. with wierd it's minimal synth, with 130/keysound it's early oughts dubstep and grime. in both cases, this past music/culture isn't just being referenced, it's being allied with, and allied with against other musical and cultural choices. for example, for the 130-types, maintaining the spirit of rhythmic complexity and disjunction against the adoption of the techno/house pulse in a lot of UK dance music. beneath's insistence on pressing and playing physical dubplates. or staying true to the darkness or dread of jungle-->dubstep/grime. as blackdown says, harking "back to the early Forward>> and Sidewinder times we lived through." in each case, it's not a 'hey this is cool' reference among others, but a statement that this form, this practice is valuable, rare today, and worthy of being preserved contra most other things.

i see these strategies becoming more prominent as directly related to the problem of trying to find a way to make aesthetic choices become meaningful (maybe even implicitly ethical or political) choices, at a time when no reference seems out of bounds.

to go full theory for a moment, a lot of this reminds me of what Benjamin calls the 'anthropological' drive of surrealism - its turn towards discovering artifacts of the recent past that run counter to the "slick surfaces" of the world today. Or to quote Crary on Benjamin's idea, it's an attempt "reveal the potency of outmoded objects excluded from [the modern cities'/contemporary world's] slick surfaces, and of derelict spaces off its main routes of circulation." Beneath insisting on making physical dubplates, at a time when most dubs fly around the world as .wav files, really reminds me of this quote!

And that kind of 'counter-memory' is what sets off this 130/keysound stuff from jackin. Clearly producers on both sides are conscious of their references, jackin tracks are filled with nods to everything from ukg to bassline. but jackin has none of this "refusal of the imposed present" (Crary again) in favor of something else (dubstep/grime), some other time (early 00's) that the 130/keysound stuff does. that's not necessarily a value judgment about either genre. but i think it clearly distinguishes the two. they're trying to do really different things, as said and others mentioned, 130/keysound stuff isn't as obviously dancefloor friendly, in fact, it seems to be pushing the limits of what could work on a dancefloor. but hey, couldn't the same thing be said about dubstep's early days? being dancefloor-challenging ≠ being anti-dancefloor.

personally, i really like a lot of the 130/keysound artists. and, in particular, beneath -- someone who is thinking about his body of work as embodying a certain vision from production to design to musical form in a really rigorous, smart way.

 

[Sectionfive]

am at a loss as to what people are arguing about tbh.

Good tunes here and a nice compliment to the healthiest grime instrumentals have been in a while too.

 

[Benny Bunter]

Great posts from said and huffafc.

 

[Vic Serotonin]

great thread and a fascinating debate that seems to apply to many musical moves/movements today.

I think there's a shared archival strategy between a lot of very different scenes right now, that parallels, but is fundamentally distinct from, the hyper-referential music making that has become the status quo across many genres and geographic locations.

I'm thinking of everything from the wierd scene in NYC to this keysound/130 stuff. In his article on the last Wierd party last week, Joshua Strawn wrote that "Wierd was a conservationist mo(ve)ment." (http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2013/02/the_wierd_has_b.html) Conservationist in the sense of preserving something of value seen to be present in a past scene and "very rare" today. not necessarily aesthetically conservative.

Rather than reveling in the freedom to reference anything, these kinds of scenes derive an aesthetic and even an ethic from their own reading of some, genre-specific musical/cultural archive. with wierd it's minimal synth, with 130/keysound it's early oughts dubstep and grime. in both cases, this past music/culture isn't just being referenced, it's being allied with, and allied with against other musical and cultural choices. for example, for the 130-types, maintaining the spirit of rhythmic complexity and disjunction against the adoption of the techno/house pulse in a lot of UK dance music. beneath's insistence on pressing and playing physical dubplates. or staying true to the darkness or dread of jungle-->dubstep/grime. as blackdown says, harking "back to the early Forward>> and Sidewinder times we lived through." in each case, it's not a 'hey this is cool' reference among others, but a statement that this form, this practice is valuable, rare today, and worthy of being preserved contra most other things.

i see these strategies becoming more prominent as directly related to the problem of trying to find a way to make aesthetic choices become meaningful (maybe even implicitly ethical or political) choices, at a time when no reference seems out of bounds.

to go full theory for a moment, a lot of this reminds me of what Benjamin calls the 'anthropological' drive of surrealism - its turn towards discovering artifacts of the recent past that run counter to the "slick surfaces" of the world today. Or to quote Crary on Benjamin's idea, it's an attempt "reveal the potency of outmoded objects excluded from [the modern cities'/contemporary world's] slick surfaces, and of derelict spaces off its main routes of circulation." Beneath insisting on making physical dubplates, at a time when most dubs fly around the world as .wav files, really reminds me of this quote!

And that kind of 'counter-memory' is what sets off this 130/keysound stuff from jackin. Clearly producers on both sides are conscious of their references, jackin tracks are filled with nods to everything from ukg to bassline. but jackin has none of this "refusal of the imposed present" (Crary again) in favor of something else (dubstep/grime), some other time (early 00's) that the 130/keysound stuff does. that's not necessarily a value judgment about either genre. but i think it clearly distinguishes the two. they're trying to do really different things, as said and others mentioned, 130/keysound stuff isn't as obviously dancefloor friendly, in fact, it seems to be pushing the limits of what could work on a dancefloor. but hey, couldn't the same thing be said about dubstep's early days? being dancefloor-challenging ≠ being anti-dancefloor.

personally, i really like a lot of the 130/keysound artists. and, in particular, beneath -- someone who is thinking about his body of work as embodying a certain vision from production to design to musical form in a really rigorous, smart way.

Fully sick post. I also can't help but recall K-Punk's writing re. Burial too, describing how his music was at once desperate to regain a particular musical spirit that had become lost and half-remembered (in his case, rave), while simultaneously refusing to simply recycle past glories, and keeping that spirit alive by forging something new out of its remains. "The ghosts of MCs past exhumed and condemned to roam the earth" has an obvious resonance here, as does Beneath's interview with Blackdown, which approaches very similar territory. To my mind, Beneath's music (taking the spirit of dubstep and injecting it into skeletal funky tunes, with the rhythmic intensity of old source direct 12"s) is similarly an act of assembling something vital and new from out of the recent, but all too hastily discarded, past.

 

[said]

great thread and a fascinating debate that seems to apply to many musical moves/movements today.

I think there's a shared archival strategy between a lot of very different scenes right now, that parallels, but is fundamentally distinct from, the hyper-referential music making that has become the status quo across many genres and geographic locations.

I'm thinking of everything from the wierd scene in NYC to this keysound/130 stuff. In his article on the last Wierd party last week, Joshua Strawn wrote that "Wierd was a conservationist mo(ve)ment." (http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2013/02/the_wierd_has_b.html) Conservationist in the sense of preserving something of value seen to be present in a past scene and "very rare" today. not necessarily aesthetically conservative.

Rather than reveling in the freedom to reference anything, these kinds of scenes derive an aesthetic and even an ethic from their own reading of some, genre-specific musical/cultural archive. with wierd it's minimal synth, with 130/keysound it's early oughts dubstep and grime. in both cases, this past music/culture isn't just being referenced, it's being allied with, and allied with against other musical and cultural choices. for example, for the 130-types, maintaining the spirit of rhythmic complexity and disjunction against the adoption of the techno/house pulse in a lot of UK dance music. beneath's insistence on pressing and playing physical dubplates. or staying true to the darkness or dread of jungle-->dubstep/grime. as blackdown says, harking "back to the early Forward>> and Sidewinder times we lived through." in each case, it's not a 'hey this is cool' reference among others, but a statement that this form, this practice is valuable, rare today, and worthy of being preserved contra most other things.

i see these strategies becoming more prominent as directly related to the problem of trying to find a way to make aesthetic choices become meaningful (maybe even implicitly ethical or political) choices, at a time when no reference seems out of bounds.

to go full theory for a moment, a lot of this reminds me of what Benjamin calls the 'anthropological' drive of surrealism - its turn towards discovering artifacts of the recent past that run counter to the "slick surfaces" of the world today. Or to quote Crary on Benjamin's idea, it's an attempt "reveal the potency of outmoded objects excluded from [the modern cities'/contemporary world's] slick surfaces, and of derelict spaces off its main routes of circulation." Beneath insisting on making physical dubplates, at a time when most dubs fly around the world as .wav files, really reminds me of this quote!

And that kind of 'counter-memory' is what sets off this 130/keysound stuff from jackin. Clearly producers on both sides are conscious of their references, jackin tracks are filled with nods to everything from ukg to bassline. but jackin has none of this "refusal of the imposed present" (Crary again) in favor of something else (dubstep/grime), some other time (early 00's) that the 130/keysound stuff does. that's not necessarily a value judgment about either genre. but i think it clearly distinguishes the two. they're trying to do really different things, as said and others mentioned, 130/keysound stuff isn't as obviously dancefloor friendly, in fact, it seems to be pushing the limits of what could work on a dancefloor. but hey, couldn't the same thing be said about dubstep's early days? being dancefloor-challenging ≠ being anti-dancefloor.

personally, i really like a lot of the 130/keysound artists. and, in particular, beneath -- someone who is thinking about his body of work as embodying a certain vision from production to design to musical form in a really rigorous, smart way.

great post! usually very wary of people going mega theoretical on rave, but this is really apposite.

also the facta mix posted is so good. montpelier slays.

 

[Corpsey]

And that kind of 'counter-memory' is what sets off this 130/keysound stuff from jackin. Clearly producers on both sides are conscious of their references, jackin tracks are filled with nods to everything from ukg to bassline. but jackin has none of this "refusal of the imposed present" (Crary again) in favor of something else (dubstep/grime), some other time (early 00's) that the 130/keysound stuff does. that's not necessarily a value judgment about either genre. but i think it clearly distinguishes the two. they're trying to do really different things, as said and others mentioned, 130/keysound stuff isn't as obviously dancefloor friendly, in fact, it seems to be pushing the limits of what could work on a dancefloor. but hey, couldn't the same thing be said about dubstep's early days? being dancefloor-challenging ≠ being anti-dancefloor.

Yeah this part is OTM I think.

I guess its easy to forget that dubstep was never INTENDED to be rave music, at least not at the start as far as I could tell. It was invented for small rooms, small crowds, minimal drugs (apart from weed).

Ultimately Jackin' doesn't strike me as being anything particularly new either, its just hype - which is more where my taste lies nowadays.