VICE magazine's G. MacInnes in The American Conservative

[3underscore]

I don't like the use of the words "Paki", "Chink" and suchlike, I must admit. However, perhaps using these words in the flippant, satirical context that VICE do can make people question their prejudices?

Personally, I think this is a desperate clutch at straws to say that it is OK in a satirical way. It simply isn't satire, in the same way that Bernard Manning isn't. It is using overt racism to offend, and that you cling to the fact that this "may make people question their prejudices" is more based out of hope, as it could also easily make people believe their prejudices are acceptable.

Face it - Vice is purely an agit magazine desperately trying to stir up a name for itself. And it is a bit of a shit one at that, as it doesn't truly have a cause.

 

[Noah Baby Food]

OK, fair do's and all. I really don't think it's the same as Bernard Manning but we aren't really gonna move forward from this one. "It simply isn't satire" - ? How do you KNOW? Why is what VICE do any different from the shock tactics that have been used in punk for ages? They're not profiteering off the kids either, just the advertisers.

If this magazine is as nasty as is being suggested, then why did Penny Rimbaud of CRASS write them a really good article? Can't see him doing a comedy collaboration with Bernard Manning (a la Chubby Brown and Smokey) myself.

And Grimewatch is a good read too.

Hell, I LIKE stuff that makes me feel uncomfortable. Are Whitehouse a misogynist group, or do they just deal with misogyny in their work? you know what I mean...

 

[henrymiller]

i think i missed the meeting where penny rimbaud and crass became paragons of the left.

 

[dominic]

vice magazine is misanthropic

and misanthropy is the conceit of the socially privileged as against the rest of humanity

the perspective allows one to cut through a lot of sacrosanct mumble jumble, the pieties of the middling classes -- and therein lies the value and the appeal of the magazine

just don't forget whose perspective it is

or confuse it with the truth

 

[monkeysblood]

left, right, left, right, left..
ATTENTION!

 

[mms]

You're right, I often read the Guardian/Observer myself and enjoy Vice. But the Guardian is more annoying and infinitely more preachy, particularly on matter of lifestyle and consumerism, than Vice.

yep i loathe the guardian so i read the bits that are interesting online.

 

[dominic]

left, right, left, right, left..
ATTENTION!

ha ha!

think i may have deserved that one!

(i.e., reread my remarks and they strike the wrong note)

let's just say that the magazine's a guilty pleasure

 

[Turns out HMG was right!]

vice magazine is misanthropic

and misanthropy is the conceit of the socially privileged as against the rest of humanity

the perspective allows one to cut through a lot of sacrosanct mumble jumble, the pieties of the middling classes -- and therein lies the value and the appeal of the magazine

just don't forget whose perspective it is

or confuse it with the truth

Oh, that's very portentous. But I think you're confusing Vice with Mein Kampf or the Turner Diaries - Reminder: it's a frothy style magazine with good journalism, great photography, concise record reviews and a sense of humour.

 

[Noah Baby Food]

Aye...in the words of VICE...."WTF????? Can you be a bit more of a nerd, please?" (no offence eh, just it does get a little EARNEST round here at times innit...BRRRAPPP!)

 

[Pearsall]

I've been meaning to weigh in on this point for a while: wasn't Political Correctness invented in the early 90's by someone like Auberon Waugh in the Spectator? (notwithstanding Mao Tse Tung etc)

Having been brought up in a mildly political family I have never experienced this phenomenon except as a shibboleth, a straw man of the right wing press. It's a classic argument ad hominem. What does invoking political correctness have to say about the validity or otherwise of left wing views? Nothing. (I agree with Mark Latham btw: it's not about Right and Left anymore, but rather Insiders and Outsiders).

Ah, my mother was an academic in the late 80's...let me assure you that, at least on this side of the Atlantic, political correctness, in its fully-named glory, was very much a real phenomenon for a time!

Eventually, of course, the pettiness and silliness of much of political correctness had it die a death as a term to which people would attach their own ideas, but it's not like it has really died out. It's simply become the academic emo. Everyone knows what it is and can recognize it on sight, but no one who is perpetrating it would ever actually describe themselves as it.

 

[henrymiller]

stupid people think it's cool

i think it's only deep-down earnest people who could fall for VICE really, like if they pull their heads out of the library they will find that in general the country could do with a little more political correctness. academia has turned PC into a pathology precisely because it's effectively separated itself from the life of society. so no, racist epithets are not okay. (also, cous-cous is good shit.)

 

[alo]

Well....A bit late but oh well,

Obviously there's a confused, reactionary divide over 'wimpy' liberalism and the rest, and in magazine terms that means a shit say nothing, uncritical magazine on the one hand and Vice on the other.
I can understand the cringyness of some left leaning snobbishness/ ignorance that crops up in conversation with some friends, but honestly, apart from the fact that The Guardian is probably the easiest target going, using terms like 'muesli knitters' puts you fimly in the Vice category: Trying way too hard mate. (Flashback to house parties and lines in the corner)
Add to this, I've met the people at Vice and they are exactly the kind of smug, moneyed, Londonite media tossers that the more pro-Vice people on this board think they might be rebelling against.
The pussyish co-opting of Grime for a start- (I doubt they've ever seen the inside of Bow.)

The problem I have with it is that it is full of provocation that goes nowhere. As mentioned before on the thread, most people couldn't give a shit about subscribing or not subscribing to its world view, mainly because its free, and that is why its so poisonous- The non committal nature of its pleased-with-itself offensiveness.

And what's wrong with Erykah Badu? Is it cos that's what Dad used to pin you down and rape you to back in the day?






See, ANYONE can fucking do it.




(Trying-too-hard overtones present and correct)

 

[Andy Capper]

let's make a date

I normally don't post on these forums, especially when all the comments about VICE are 80 per cent positive, but one thing got my goat.

It was the thing that 'ALO' said about meeting VICE and us all being 'smug,moneyed london media tossers'.
That made me mad.
Umm, none of us are originally from London and if you think I am rich, you must be poorer than West Africa.
So, seriously, 'Alo', when do you meet me? Was I flush that week? Did i buy you a drink or something? What was it? 'smug juice'? How was it?
Tell me when and where. Maybe we can meet there again sometime soon to discuss your problems.

And the thing about 'pussy-ish co-opting of grime'? Explain why writing about Grime and putting on Grime events is 'pussy'? And how we never went to Bow to make that documentary where Gavin had a gun pulled on him and Jamie nearly got stabbed.

Look forward to hearing from you,
Best,
Andy

 

[mms]

to back andy up here, he's the antithesis of a rich moneyed london tosser from the couple of times i've met him.
also piers martin who i've known for some years is a bloke with a posh name from just outside plymouth plus he's always a bit skint.

 

[tox]

On a slightly related, but kinda unrelated note, did Sugar Ape magazine from Nathan Barley (the series from Channel 4) make anyone think of Vice?

The inside of the office is exactly how I imagine Vice to be, together with the not-quite-sure-if-its-ironic shock tactics, such as rebranding the magazine Rape - "the 'SUGA' is inside the 'R'."

As Jonathan Yeah?, the editor of Sugar Rape, said "Stupid people think its clever, and clever people think its a joke" and perhaps this applies to Vice as well.

 

[Andy Capper]

umm, you forgot to mention that I am good looking and have an excellent body as well.

fyi, the vice office is more like a eastern european hippy commune than the one on Nathan Barley. that place was like Siegfried & Roy's mansion compared to our shack. I don't go in that often cos I don't like wading through the mess of armpit hair, cigarettes and chewing gum that the interns spit out on the floor in between stamping and packing envelopes.

..... if anybody wants to pitch me articles / photos, it's andy@viceuk.com
bye bye

 

[Noah Baby Food]

Nice to see Andy Capper's two-penn'orth here.

If I had a choice between VICE or The Wire, it's VICE every time. Noticed the latest issue of RWD is rocking the VICE style humour slightly, too, although maybe I am imagining this.

Ultimately, even if VICE stopped all the naughty bad words, gave fat record deals to a load of grime artists, walked your dog and stopped world debt, it would STILL get hated on by some folks.

-They give away a free CD every month (email them and they send you one)

-They write about grime every month

-They sign grime artists

-They give grime artists prestigious gigs throughout the world

-They put on FREE club nights with good music

...rilly doe...WHERE'S THA LOVE???

 

[Noah Baby Food]

Sorry everyone, I will stop, but I just thought of this:

Is it OK for dancehall artists to go on about "bunnin chi-chi men" etc, but not for VICE to use their cheeky, offensive lil' epithets? Don't see much cussing of dancehall artists round these parts...

Also, the attitude to women and gays in a lot of gangsta rap...and grime!


Can someone explain this to me? If you're "authentic", you can say what you like and use offensive terminology, but if you write for VICE, you can't? Is that the crack?

Coz, that looks AWFULLY like "we can't expect anymore from these poor salt-of-the-earth artists, they haven't had the education we have...(but isn't it so EARTHY?), but when it comes to EDUCATED JOURNALISTS (i.e. US), we can't accept this kind of language, because they really should know better"....

Now I fully expect some big wordy responses telling me why I'm wrong in no uncertain terms, but my point is: look a little deeper at your preconceptions before piling in...

 

[mms]

Sorry everyone, I will stop, but I just thought of this:

Is it OK for dancehall artists to go on about "bunnin chi-chi men" etc, but not for VICE to use their cheeky, offensive lil' epithets? Don't see much cussing of dancehall artists round these parts....

ermm i think you'l find its not, its abhorred

Also, the attitude to women and gays in a lot of gangsta rap...and grime!

again

Can someone explain this to me? If you're "authentic", you can say what you like and use offensive terminology, but if you write for VICE, you can't? Is that the crack?

Coz, that looks AWFULLY like "we can't expect anymore from these poor salt-of-the-earth artists, they haven't had the education we have...(but isn't it so EARTHY?), but when it comes to EDUCATED JOURNALISTS (i.e. US), we can't accept this kind of language, because they really should know better"....

Now I fully expect some big wordy responses telling me why I'm wrong in no uncertain terms, but my point is: look a little deeper at your preconceptions before piling in...

it's not cos no one here condones any kind of homophobia, sexism around these parts.
dunno where you get your info from.
no one has any preconceptions, everyone here knows the problems with supporting music that is sometimes sexist, homophobic etc and acknowledges it and speaks up against it.

 

[zhao]

who ever said Vice is misanthropic (Dominic?), please read this article:

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n2/htdocs/mother.php

I'm going to get a bit personal here, at the risk of being reidiculed by the REAL arseholes worldwide: this simple little piece of journalism made me cry. and I DON'T cry easily. it also inspired me to call my estranged family and see how they are doing after 1 entire year of not talking.

I met one of the founders of VIce at a party in the hills in LA a few years ago (I think it was Shane) where I was spinning some records. the VIce crew rolled in at 3 AM, after my set was over. we had a long conversation in which he was doing endless bumps and also told me all about the very VERY humble beginning of Vice (used to be called Voice, a stapled together rag he put together while crashing on friend's couches), hanging out with Tibetan monks, the incredibly fucked up situation in Afghanistan (pre-911), being on a first name basis with Latin American drug-lords, and having Warner Brothers knock their door down trying to get a movie deal.

Vice is 1 of my 2 favorite magazines in the world, ever. (the other being the Wire)