The Empowered Nerd.

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Which certainly would be naive, but I don't think Nagle says or even implies that anywhere.

Sure, I get that the author isn't saying that herself, but she says:

The self-organized corps of women-hating men, by the lights of conventional academic-feminist theory, should be united in the repression of any and all gay male tendencies expressed online.

Which would imply that "conventional academic-feminist theor[ists]", in Nagle's view, would find (e.g.) gay porn on 4chan very surprising. In which she may well be right, I dunno.

It's more that the misogyny witnessed at online communities like 4chan is not routed in conventional masculine norms, the patriarchy, the traditional family, or any of the more "generic" explanations commonly offered in the media and academia.

Yes, this seems very reasonable.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Which certainly would be naive, but I don't think Nagle says or even implies that anywhere. It's more that the misogyny witnessed at online communities like 4chan is not routed in conventional masculine norms, the patriarchy, the traditional family, or any of the more "generic" explanations commonly offered in the media and academia.

Interesting read but I don't really buy it tbh.

I really don't see how it follows that misogyny does not spring from the patriarchy just because they're geeks or identify as 'betas' or eternal adolescents or whatever. They just resent what the alphas have got and they do not, but they're still the same patriarchal values, its still based on male-supremacy and a sense of entitlement. They may hate themselves and other men for being above them in the hierarchy, but they're in no way bothered about smashing the patriarchial system itself. That's why I don't buy the idea that these nu-nerd misogynists are somehow anti-conservative. All they want is a reshuffle at the top of patriarchal pile, but the greater system of male supremacy would remain unaffected. A masculinity may be seen as 'marginal' compared to the mainstream 'alpha' male culture, but its still masculinity, and as men they're still born into privilege over women. Thats just patriarchy 101.

In other words, the 'sexual contract' which sustains patriarchy is being continually rewritten - apparently new 'types' of masculinity may emerge and evolve, the pecking order at the top of the hierarchy might be squabbled over - but the contract itself is not torn up. I think the seemingly 'new' strains of misogynistic behaviour can still be explained in terms of the overarching patriarchal structure.

And picking up on what Mr Tea said, the idea that being GBTQ being into 'porn and pranks', or consider themselves to be 'anti-establishment' in some way suggests they're NOT patriarchal is silly. These sort of myths got exploded years ago by people like Sheila Jeffreys, but people still seem to buy into them. I personally think we should be going and reading some of this stuff again to assess the current situation, not just dismissing it as "generic", 'traditional' or 'conventional'.

From later in the article...

Today, we see the weirdly parallel ascent of an Internet-centric feminism that, like the beta revolution, glories in geeky countercultural elitism, and whose most enthusiastic partisans spend a great deal of time attacking other women for being insufficiently radical. Many of these feminists are active on the microblogging site Tumblr, and they are less apt to write about material issues that have concerned left-wing feminists for decades, like parental leave or unequal pay, than about the online obsession du jour: from feminist video games to coloring books, cosplay, knitting, cupcakes, microaggressions, trigger warnings, no-platforming, bi-erasure, and the fastidious avoidance of anything remotely resembling cultural appropriation. The recent popular left candidates Bernie Sanders (in the United States) and Jeremy Corbyn (in the United Kingdom) have come in for heavy rhetorical fire from this new wave of wired feminists, who deride them both as retrograde prophets of “brocialism.”

This seems to be implying that the 'traditional' 'concerned left-wing" feminists of old are not also criticising popular left candidates like Sanders and Corbyn. But as far I can see,, by far the biggest and sharpest criticism of popular left 'brocialist' candidates like Corbyn and Sanders is actually coming from left-wing radical feminists (ie; 2nd wave)- including your Julie Bindels and so on, but also new waves of feminists - not the cyber-geeky 'internet-centric' lot she describes. I mean, yes, these third (fourth by now?) wavers occasionally do make noises against the left too, and liberal feminism has become very popular, but its not really a political movement in the sense that 2nd wave feminism was before it - its more individualist and identity-obsessed (some might say narcissistic) as she points out.

I didn't really like the article because, in (quite rightfully) bashing all the more silly, trendy liberal identity politics stuff, she throws the baby out with the bath water when she dismisses patriarchy as a cause of this 'new' misogyny, or a totally outdated way of analysing it. She just reduces the feminist landscape down to "conventional academic-feminist theorists" and these cyber geeky libfems like Laurie Penny and the rest. i thought it was very reductive in that respect.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Can someone explain to me how Corbyn and Sanders are "brocialists" for reasons other than being A) left-wing and B) male?
 

vimothy

yurp
One reason they can't be characterised in terms of socially conservative or masculine norms is they're consciously rejecting them. They think of themselves as "betas" and "failsons", not as inheritors of male authority. They shut themselves away from society and inhabit virtual worlds of computer games and anime porn, socially inept losers who resent "normies" and their ability to function "in real life". Just because they often turn out to be misogynistic arseholes doesn't make that any less true, and it doesn't make whatever institutions are emerging the continuation of traditional values or social structures. They are much closer to the complete antithesis of traditional values, -- a force of social dissolution, "everything solid melts into air" -- than social conservatism.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
A masculinity may be seen as 'marginal' compared to the mainstream 'alpha' male culture, but its still masculinity, and as men they're still born into privilege over women. Thats just patriarchy 101.

Not convinced by this at all. A huge part of nerdish internetty misogyny revolves around sex, and the lack of availability thereof. Men who are neither attractive nor confident nor wealthy are obviously disadvantaged with respect to men who are at least one of those things, but in basic terms of the ability to get laid they're also worse off than the great majority of women. And that's without even going into the various kinds of social dysfunction and physical and mental illnesses that are more prevalent (in some cases by a massive margin) among men than among women.
 

Benny Bunter

Well-known member
Not convinced by this at all. A huge part of nerdish internetty misogyny revolves around sex, and the lack of availability thereof. Men who are neither attractive nor confident nor wealthy are obviously disadvantaged with respect to men who are at least one of those things, but in basic terms of the ability to get laid they're also worse off than the great majority of women. And that's without even going into the various kinds of social dysfunction and physical and mental illnesses that are more prevalent (in some cases by a massive margin) among men than among women.

"Getting laid" is not the be all and end all mr tea.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
"Getting laid" is not the be all and end all mr tea.

Sigh. Did I say that?

Nonetheless, it's something that's fairly (edit: let's face it, extremely) important to most people, isn't it? Very few people are voluntarily celibate.
 
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luka

Well-known member
its as close as you can get to a be all and end all, leaving aside basic survival necessities
 

Corpsey

bandz ahoy
And, let's not forget (for God's sake), that many of these empowered nerds are adolescent boys.

Reminds me of this bit from The West Wing:

RELIGIOUS BLOKE: "Show the average American teenage male a condom and his mind will turn to thoughts of lust."
TOBY ZIEGLER: "Show the average American teenage male a lug wrench and his mind will --"

Perhaps it's best not to think of getting laid as the be all and end all, so much as a foundational need in some sense preceding 'higher' callings:

maslows-hierarchy-of-needs.gif


I'm well acquainted with all this, of course, because I never get laid. I know the importance of getting laid as the person crawling through the desert knows the importance of water.
 
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firefinga

Well-known member
Not convinced by this at all. A huge part of nerdish internetty misogyny revolves around sex, and the lack of availability thereof. Men who are neither attractive nor confident nor wealthy are obviously disadvantaged with respect to men who are at least one of those things, but in basic terms of the ability to get laid they're also worse off than the great majority of women. And that's without even going into the various kinds of social dysfunction and physical and mental illnesses that are more prevalent (in some cases by a massive margin) among men than among women.

Expressions of sexual desire , even crudish ones, are not "misogynist" per se, either. And the frustration of not getting laid atall (or not getting laid by the right person) is possilby one of the main sources of frustration among men AND women today.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Expressions of sexual desire , even crudish ones, are not "misogynist" per se, either.

Well no, of course not. And no-one's saying that. But frustrated sexual desire can easily curdle into resentment and outright hatred.

And the frustration of not getting laid atall (or not getting laid by the right person) is possilby one of the main sources of frustration among men AND women today.

You know it's weird, with all the wonderful technology we have these days you'd have thought someone'd be making a killing operating an online service that allows lonely, horny people to hook up with other lonely, horny people.

(Hmm, that sounds like a rather distasteful R.E.M. song. Wasn't meant to.)
 

firefinga

Well-known member
...and while we're on the subject of misogyny - the most misogynistic products of popular culture I have ever come across was coming from black rappers. I guess it's "black privilege" to call women Hoe and Bitch unless it's your mother.
 
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you

Well-known member
You know it's weird, with all the wonderful technology we have these days you'd have thought someone'd be making a killing operating an online service that allows lonely, horny people to hook up with other lonely, horny people.

What planet are you on? ;-) You know full well that the trick to making a 'killing' is to offer a platform that promises to allow lonely horny people to hook up yet seldom succeeds - thus maintaining return traffic for the data farm to increase yield and sell the user patterns on. Everyone knows that online social networks and services must ALWAYS promise without delivering. Friends and Facebook. Meaningful conversation and forums. Sex and dating apps. These platforms make nothing from friends, conversation or sex - the real yield is driven by the online activities of people who endlessly hope for such things. Go back to business school bro.
 

luka

Well-known member
his line of work means any woman he was involved with would be exposed to unconscionable degrees of danger and yet as a lifelong romantic he cannot abide cheap plastic one night stands with loose women.
 
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