Russia Surrounded

[mixed_biscuits]

V interesting

 

[wild greens]

I tend to side with the Bellingcat side of the argument when it comes to Pat but he does make a good video

‘Exploiting Cadavers ’and ‘Faked IEDs’: Experts Debunk Staged Pre-War ‘Provocation’ in the Donbas - bellingcat

Russian media reported that a civilian car in the Donbas was destroyed by a Ukrainian IED in the days before the war. But damage to the vehicle doesn’t add up, and charred bodies show suspicious signs of an autopsy.

www.bellingcat.com

 

[mixed_biscuits]

 

[Mr. Tea]

Didn't France and Germany nix Ukraine's NATO ambitions years ago? I understood VZ's government was manoeuvring to join the EU, not NATO.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Things that are suddenly ok because Ukraine:

- recruiting and arming child soldiers
- taping people to lampposts without trial
- collaborating with Nazis
- censorship of an entire country's media
- considering the citizenry/army expendable as they are forced to fight to the last man
- arming the general population
- fomenting hate, Manichean thinking
- Nationalism
- the US sticking their oar in everywhere

 

[Leo]

while those things may be loathsome, but not all of them are new.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Things that are suddenly ok because Ukraine:

- recruiting and arming child soldiers
- taping people to lampposts without trial
- collaborating with Nazis
- censorship of an entire country's media
- considering the citizenry/army expendable as they are forced to fight to the last man
- arming the general population
- fomenting hate, Manichean thinking
- Nationalism
- the US sticking their oar in everywhere

Aside from the last point, which of these things is specific to the Ukrainian side?

 

[Clinamenic]

I think Mixed's point is that a general consensus among people who would otherwise be against these things, now permits them under a pro-Ukraine pretense. I'm inclined to support this change of consensus, but it does reveal that many of the beliefs we have that we treat as universal and categorical are actually pretty flexible, under the right circumstances. And to me this seems very natural.

 

[Clinamenic]

Like how left-wing consensus now sees through bad-faith allegations of Nazism, because someone unfavored by this consensus (Putin) has employed this tactic. In other words, it now seems more okay, in the left-wing cultural consensus I'm used to, to make the argument "wait maybe this accusation of Nazism was made in bad faith."

 

[shakahislop]

Things that are suddenly ok because Ukraine:

- recruiting and arming child soldiers
- taping people to lampposts without trial
- collaborating with Nazis
- censorship of an entire country's media
- considering the citizenry/army expendable as they are forced to fight to the last man
- arming the general population
- fomenting hate, Manichean thinking
- Nationalism
- the US sticking their oar in everywhere

i like the idea of having a trial, and the verdict being that someone needs to be taped to a lamppost

 

[Leo]

- recruiting and arming child soldiers
- taping people to lampposts without trial
- considering the citizenry/army expendable as they are forced to fight to the last man
- arming the general population

I'm inclined to support this change of consensus...to me this seems very natural.

 

[Clinamenic]

Yeah I was trying to give a disclaimer that I'm not pro-Russia, but I seem to have found an entirely different pitfall to stumble into.

 

[Clinamenic]

In any case, the change in consensus among remote spectators does seem natural. But to be clear, I do not support the militarization of children.

 

[Leo]

it's valid to think consensus shouldn't be stagnant, it should evolve as times and situations change. but maybe the consensus against taping people to lampposts without trial is one we should hang on to.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Come on though, "everyone thinks Nazis are fine now" is a zero-effort straw man if ever I saw one.

Edit: that was at biccies, obviously.

 

[Clinamenic]

I don't think that characterizes the consensus-shift I'm talking about, so I didn't mean to set up that strawman.

 

[Clinamenic]

it's valid to think consensus shouldn't be stagnant, it should evolve as times and situations change. but maybe the consensus that taping people to lampposts without trial is one we should hang on to.

Yeah I think its more of an emotionally charged consensus than a rationally evaluated consensus, and maybe I've overestimating how much remote spectators are willing to tolerate atrocities undertaken by Ukrainian forces. In any case, I agree this isn't a consensus that should stick around.

 

[Clinamenic]

But I also see Mixed trying to make a point here which usually gets shot down, and which I think has a kernel of truth within it, as do many lines of argument that can nonetheless lead to slanted conclusions.

 

[Clinamenic]

But I also see Mixed trying to make a point here which usually gets shot down, and which I think has a kernel of truth within it, as do many lines of argument that can nonetheless lead to slanted conclusions.

To be clear, here I see Mixed pointing out the sort of hypocrisy that left wing culture is presumably just as guilty of hosting as right-wing culture, when it is convenient.

 

[IdleRich]

i like the idea of having a trial, and the verdict being that someone needs to be taped to a lamppost

You have been found guilty of being a drunken groom on a stag night, I therefore have no choice but to decree that you be taken from this place to another place where you will be taped to a lamppost until such time as you be sober. And may God have mercy on your soul.