We Are All Willing On The Catastrophe

[padraig (u.s.)]

why should a particular set of circumstances give rise to fascism as opposed to somehting else?

people who feel hopeless in their current circumstances are more open to authoritarian rule that promises to change those circumstances for the better

they're more open to the idea of hearing that other people are to blame for their problems, and less likely to protest the scapegoating, abuse, etc of those people

 

[vimothy]

you're just restating the question as a statement, it's not an explanation

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

OK let's fucking drill down then

people want to survive. meeting their survival needs is the most base human drive.

if people's ability to survive is threatened, they'll do things they wouldn't otherwise to do increase of their (and family etc) chances of surviving, thriving.

 

[vimothy]

people who feel hopeless in their current circumstances are more open to authoritarian rule that promises to change those circumstances for the better

they're more open to the idea of hearing that other people are to blame for their problems, and less likely to protest the scapegoating, abuse, etc of those people

ok but *why* is that the case? bc ppl some sense desire it, they *want* to scapegoat others

 

[vimothy]

why is the scapegoat an archetypal figure?

 

[vimothy]

everything cannot possibly be structural. structure must arise from somewhere

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

this is an impossible argument

your thesis is "not even wrong" as the saying goes

a thing happens. therefore, you say, de facto people wanted it to happen.

that's not how it works. people do things they don't want to do all the time.

you're saying no, underneath that, they did want them to happen.

it's impossible to disprove, or to prove. if you want to take it as a matter of faith, sure, but that's a different thing.

 

[IdleRich]

Surely part of the issue here is cos Vimothy has this drive in himself and recognises it, Droid either doesn't have it or doesn't recognise it - both are then generalising and insisting that their experience is universal.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

everything cannot possibly be structural. structure must arise from somewhere

OK now we're getting somewhere

I don't know the answer to that question, tho neither do you I'd imagine

I would imagine this is something varies fields of study are in one way or another primarily devoted to

 

[vimothy]

I'm not saying this drive is universal, it may well be historically contingent

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

again, I'm not saying this drive doesn't exist

even if I thought that, which I don't, it's again, impossible to prove or disprove

I just don't how you can extrapolate its possible existence, to the ultimate factor driving basically human killing and related actions

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm not saying this drive is universal, it may well be historically contingent

right OK, then we're not as far apart as I thought

 

[vimothy]

this is an impossible argument

your thesis is "not even wrong" as the saying goes

a thing happens. therefore, you say, de facto people wanted it to happen.

that's not how it works. people do things they don't want to do all the time.

you're saying no, underneath that, they did want them to happen.

it's impossible to disprove, or to prove. if you want to take it as a matter of faith, sure, but that's a different thing.

earlier you described this as a tautology - what's the difference here?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

in that case, I think those are all good questions

I doubt we can arrive at answer, tho certainly the discussion is worth having

at some point I think it will get down to one's fundamental beliefs about human nature, or the nature of being human

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

earlier you described this as a tautology - what's the difference here?

there is none

that's what I'm saying you're saying

tho if you're just positing them as questions rather than statements it's not obviously

 

[vimothy]

again, I'm not saying this drive doesn't exist

even if I thought that, which I don't, it's again, impossible to prove or disprove

I just don't how you can extrapolate its possible existence, to the ultimate factor driving basically human killing and related actions

I'm not suggesting anything which is the ultimate factor driving all human conflict

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

OK

what are you saying, if anything?

or, what statements are you making, if any? as opposed to just asking questions

 

[luka]

people do things they don't want to do all the time.

Do people know what they want? Are there never mutually opposed desires coexisting in the same breast? Is it not possible to pull in multiple directions at once? What are people? What is wanting? Etc etc

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I do think there is something in your initial post about Heidegger and being brought closer to the experience of "really" living

I don't think it necessarily conflicts with what droid is saying tho

 

[vimothy]

clearly, humans involve themselves in conflict.

where does this come from?

idk