Keir Starmer

john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
version said:
I'm not sure. One of them said they'd rather "give principled support for national liberation (and maybe be a puppet of Moscow) than be a 3rd-campist and stumble into anticommunism and cheerleading imperialism".

They also described leftcom as "worthless navel gazing" that "sneers at anything that actually improves people's lives (especially in the global south lol), for the sake of some abstract crap about MUH VALUE FORM".
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Well yeah. The obvious criticism of ultra left stuff is that it is holier than thou sniping that never achieves anything. But the comeback is that these national liberation movements have not actually achieved communism and have, shall we say, a mixed track record for improving people’s lives.
 
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william kent

Well-known member
They started talking about quality of life and life expectancy in the USSR and stuff and said it was preferable to America because they "at least had people honestly trying to work towards something better".
 
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william kent

Well-known member
DannyL said:
And what about now? 30 years afterwards - I hope they've updated their analysis a bit. Same with Iran.
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Yeah, they were specifically talking about the USSR. They said quality of life and life expectancy were objectively higher than anything before or after in those territories.

Iran they were talking about at the start of the revolution, not Iran as it is today.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
version said:
I'm not sure. One of them said they'd rather "give principled support for national liberation (and maybe be a puppet of Moscow) than be a 3rd-campist and stumble into anticommunism and cheerleading imperialism".

They also described leftcom as "worthless navel gazing" that "sneers at anything that actually improves people's lives (especially in the global south lol), for the sake of some abstract crap about MUH VALUE FORM".
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I'm imagining your eyes rolling back in your head and you adopting a weird voice as "one of them" delivers these pronouncements.
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
It feels to me like they may be focused on those past points as that lets them keep their ideology clearer. You can make that argument about Iran in 1979 and the immediate aftermath. Now, not so much. Similar point re. Russia - what it was, rather than what it's become.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
(I sometimes find it annoying when events move on, y'know just after you've finished reading about it or whatever. Their v old reference points remind me of that a bit).
 
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william kent

Well-known member
I've argued with some of them about China before because they often seem to behave as though anything negative you hear about an opponent of the US is just US propaganda. That, or they say "Well, what about this from the US... " and use that to dismiss it instead.

It's interesting because they know about stuff like Operation Paperclip and realise that, despite opposing the Nazis, there were issues with the Allies too, but they don't seem to apply that logic to the present day.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
version said:
I've argued with some of them about China before because they often seem to behave as though anything negative you hear about an opponent of the US is just US propaganda. That, or they say "Well, what about this from the US... " and use that to dismiss it instead.
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There's a third option, which is to admit that the imperialism/oppression/violence is going on, but to whitewash it as a legitimate and justified response to a threat: "There are no 'moderate Syrian rebels'" - "Actually there's been a huge surge in violent Islamism among the Uyghur" - "Those 'spontaneous protests' were organised by the CIA" and so on.
 
C

craner

Beast of Burden
version said:
I've argued with some of them about China before because they often seem to behave as though anything negative you hear about an opponent of the US is just US propaganda. That, or they say "Well, what about this from the US... " and use that to dismiss it instead.
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Oh, you should check out an individual called Ben Norton, he is a specialist in this.
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
There's a bunch of them who are laundering Russian war crimes with regard to Syria - Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate are probably the most well known. The fact that they get a pass on the Left (sometimes) is on of the things that pushes me towards the centre. Kier may be a cop but I know he's not going to shake hands with the guys who deny Assad's gas attacks.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
DannyL said:
There's a bunch of them who are laundering Russian war crimes with regard to Syria - Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate are probably the most well known. The fact that they get a pass on the Left (sometimes) is on of the things that pushes me towards the centre. Kier may be a cop but I know he's not going to shake hands with the guys who deny Assad's gas attacks.
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There's a whole gang of these sorts at Bristol University, isn't there?
 
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DannyL

Wild Horses
The one at Bristol is David Miller who has been thrown out of the party. This sort of stuff makes me cheer for Kier. There's a bunch of others at other institutions - Edinburgh Uni for instance has a few who tried to get Syria campaigner Idrees Ahmed in trouble over his doctorate. Piers Robinson is the name I recall.
 
C

craner

Beast of Burden
DannyL said:
There's a bunch of them who are laundering Russian war crimes with regard to Syria - Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate are probably the most well known. The fact that they get a pass on the Left (sometimes) is on of the things that pushes me towards the centre. Kier may be a cop but I know he's not going to shake hands with the guys who deny Assad's gas attacks.
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Yeah, Norton is one of the Grayzone gang. Hong Kong protesters are neocon agents, the camps are providing free education to Uighurs in Xinjiang, the U.S. prison system is the real genocide, all that stuff.
 
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