Keir Starmer

subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
john eden said:
But what happened to them, @subvert47 ? The hundreds of thousands of people who voted for and believed in Corbyn (not all of whom I would reduce to being in his fan club, if that helps)?
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Sorry, "Corbyn's fan club" made it seem as though my post was directed at you. It wasn't really.

As to what happened... Some were disillusioned by our useless triangulating on Brexit. Others are disillusioned by Starmer's useless triangulating on everything. Dunno what the membership figures are like now. Certainly a lot of us are staying at least until the NEC elections next month. After that, I guess we'll see. Probably more people will become involved in single issue campaigning outside the party. A lot will have been put off politics for good. Meanwhile centrists want us all to get behind Starmer or face "ten more years...". Fucking wankers.
 
B

boxedjoy

Well-known member
look at Scotland - support for the SNP is high, and it's not because people have a deep desire to see the country split up, they just want to live in a fairer society and the SNP have managed to position themselves as The Least Bad Bastards, which isn't really enough to actively win my own vote but given the alternatives it's easy to see why their support has been so strong
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
subvert47 said:
All this bullshit about Corbyn's fan club. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people – a lot of them young people, who had never been involved in party politics before – who suddenly saw hope, a chance to change society, and joined the Labour party enthused that this might even be possible. And you all reduce them and their aspirations for a better society to some sort of cult. Well, fuck that contemptible cynicism. Basically.
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Nobody here is dissing these people for their enthusiasm or idealism. It's just a shame there wasn't more of them. I mean, John has a point about a lot of Labour MPs being against Corbyn from the start, but the focus on factionalism within the parliamentary party is a way for Corbyn's supporters to sidestep the issue that he was never popular with a majority or even a decent-sized plurality of the public.

And I think 'fan club' is a reasonable term because really did (and clearly still does) have fans rather than supporters or voters. I mentioned the personality cult aspect of it all on here a while back and you completely flew off the handle at me, as if you were going out of your way to prove my point.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
luka said:
i became radicalised and decided death to all politicians was the only possible path forward. gouts of blood. gutters frothing with blood. that's probably the main response but it will differ person to person i reckon.
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Yeah, you might have mentioned it once or twice. It'd be one thing if you were claiming (however falsely) to be willing to put yourself on the line, but it's the disjunct between claims of being a "lefty" and your willingness to volunteer millions of other people for violent death - mainly poor and marginalised Americans, as far I can see - that stands out here.
 
D

DannyL

Wild Horses
subvert47 said:
All this bullshit about Corbyn's fan club. You're talking about hundreds of thousands of people – a lot of them young people, who had never been involved in party politics before – who suddenly saw hope, a chance to change society, and joined the Labour party enthused that this might even be possible. And you all reduce them and their aspirations for a better society to some sort of cult. Well, fuck that contemptible cynicism. Basically.
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I actually think what you've described is the one good thing (well the main one, you get my point) about "Corbynism" etc. Hundreds of thousands of people enthused about change and politics. I don't for a second think this was a bad thing. What I was slagging off was specific politicians - the Corbynite rump" (unpleasant image) who're slagging off Kier. I'm pretty sure they're coordinating stuff like the kerfuffle over the vote mentioned above to undermine him. The Socialist Campaign Group people basically. Ironic considering the angry screaming about disloyalty that's been going on since this started.

I think the Labour centre, so called, hasn't really digested this moment yet (the wave of popularity JC rode in on), or wants to pretend it didn't happen and what this says about an appetite for change. This to me is the mirror of Corbynites not wanting to accept that they lost the election (the only one I've seen who struck the right tone is McDonnell - again, I don't like his politics much, but he's so much smarter than the rest of 'em, especially the dimwit in chief. You might've had a chance if he was in charge,I guess he's less cuddly though)
 
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subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
Mr. Tea said:
I mentioned the personality cult aspect of it all on here a while back and you completely flew off the handle at me
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Yeah, because for us on the left it was never about Corbyn himself. So calling us all cultists was both stupid and insulting – as well as a guaranteed troll hit if that's what you were after.

It was everyone else who was obsessed with him: Tories because that was good political strategy. Centrists because they're wankers. Voters on the doorstep because, well, fuck knows why really, except that it had become a factoid that Corbyn was an awful awful man.
 
subvert47

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
DannyL said:
This to me is the mirror of Corbynites not wanting to accept that they lost the election (the only one I've seen who struck the right tone is McDonnell - again, I don't like his politics much, but he's so much smarter than the rest of 'em, especially the dimwit in chief. You might've had a chance if he was in charge,I guess he's less cuddly though)
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Yeah, I've got a lot of time for John McDonnell.

As regards not accepting we lost the election: we accept that all right. We're just still very angry and bitter about it. One set of people I personally especially hate is Guardian hacks.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
subvert47 said:
Sorry, "Corbyn's fan club" made it seem as though my post was directed at you. It wasn't really.

As to what happened... Some were disillusioned by our useless triangulating on Brexit. Others are disillusioned by Starmer's useless triangulating on everything. Dunno what the membership figures are like now. Certainly a lot of us are staying at least until the NEC elections next month. After that, I guess we'll see. Probably more people will become involved in single issue campaigning outside the party. A lot will have been put off politics for good. Meanwhile centrists want us all to get behind Starmer or face "ten more years...". Fucking wankers.
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no worries - agree with all that.
 
john eden

john eden

male pale and stale
I think there are always weirdos with royal family t-shirts who wait out in the rain when a royal sprout is born. And odd Tories who fancy Boris or try to make Jacob Rees Mogg memes a thing.

And there were a handful of people who knitted Corbyn tea cosies but I agree with @subvert47 that for most people I knew they saw this as a chance to push forward progressive politics and Jezza himself was largely incidental.

I was pretty cynical about this from the outset but can’t fault people for giving it a go. I would prefer to have been proved wrong.

Of course the Corbyn project made some awful mistakes and of course it was subject to utterly intensive scrutiny compared to those closer to the centre or right.

Which all makes my own politics even more marginal.

But all this is an indication of a sea change and the old certainties of neoliberalism fraying at the edges. So...
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
subvert47 said:
Yeah, because for us on the left it was never about Corbyn himself. So calling us all cultists was both stupid and insulting – as well as a guaranteed troll hit if that's what you were after.
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No, it wasn't a "troll". OK, I take as true your claim that it was never about Corbyn himself for you, and perhaps also for other people you know. But you can't tell me that that's the case for everyone, because I know a number of people IRL for whom it absolutely was all about Corbyn himself. I mean there's luka's "greatest living Englishman" schtick right here on this board, assuming that isn't just another wind-up.

And it cuts both ways, because the antipathy that most voters felt towards him was personal, too. They often told me this while I was canvassing locally. Most people liked his policies, remember - I think even a fair percentage of Tory voters said they sounded sensible when asked "is this a good idea or not?", without reference to parties or leaders.

subvert47 said:
It was everyone else who was obsessed with him: Tories because that was good political strategy. Centrists because they're wankers. Voters on the doorstep because, well, fuck knows why really...
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