Theorization of the grime " discourse "

[dominic]

jesus, ladies, calm down. the fact is that if you're talking about 2step/grime-as-scene in the US, it's pretty pointless anyway. the real evolution and birth of the scene happened in london, then the music was adopted by djs, from whetever field d&b, house etc, elsewhere after the fact. thu us didn't have a 2step scene worth talking about much, really, because it was all secondary action.

yes, but it ties into the larger question of the credibility of uk sounds in the us -- a question that the americans on this board care about

(so whether uk people care is, sorry to say, irrelevant)

i'm suggesting that rave had credibility b/c early rave sounds were close enough to indigneous american house sounds that, in the first instance, credible us djs were willing to play the records -- and then, over and above that, the rave phenomenon was so powerful there could simply be no resisting its claims

jungle/d'n'b was then the soundtrack of the hardcore us rave scene -- and so long as rave was happening big time in the states, never on european scale, but still a pretty big time scene in mid to late 90s, then no questions need be asked

2-step came in board in late 90s and was -- again speaking from my very narrow, provincial experience -- the kind of thing the more down-with-it house djs would play in the closing hour of their sets -- again, played by djs w/ serious credentials out in vast swathes of provincial, midwestern america

grime, by contrast, is being referred to as music for trend-spotters -- is this fair to grime? probably not -- and is it fair to the people in the us who are supporting grime? probably not -- but that's the perception

now when i use phrases like "credible djs" and "djs w/ serious credentials," the obvious reply is to ask why should the old guard be in charge indefinitely? why not bring in new blood? -- and these are of course perfectly valid rejoinders -- having underground stalwarts in their late 30s serve as arbiter is no less suffocating or unhealthy or burdensome than the millionare dj mafia in the uk

the question, rather, is how does the new blood establish its authority, credibility, position

if they're perceived as overly dependent on internet channels then they're gonna have a credibility problem

and, yes, perhaps the subterranean dj tribe networks of yore are something of a myth --

but again, that's the perception, i.e., subterranean networks back then versus trendspotters on the internet now

 

[dominic]

sounds a bit rich for me

there are rumors afloat that the initial post was a prank (which explains the rich language)

but if the prank succeeded in suckering us all in, that's simply because it touched upon real concerns

in which case the real joke is on the jokester himself -- i.e., anyone who treats common concerns as worthy only of his cleverly stated contempt is probably a wanker

 

[stelfox]

2-step came in board in late 90s and was -- again speaking from my very narrow, provincial experience -- the kind of thing the more down-with-it house djs would play in the closing hour of their sets -- again, played by djs w/ serious credentials out in vast swathes of provincial, midwestern america

dominic, this is very much only in your experience and i don't see how a uk perspective on uk music can be irrelevant.

 

[dominic]

i don't see how a uk perspective on uk music can be irrelevant.

i didn't say that your perspective is irrelevant

rather, i said it's irrelevant whether you care about the concerns and passions and arguments of american participants on this board -- i.e., you have a penchant for trying to pour water on our flames

 

[cooper]

now when i use phrases like "credible djs" and "djs w/ serious credentials," the obvious reply is to ask why should the old guard be in charge indefinitely? why not bring in new blood? -- and these are of course perfectly valid rejoinders -- having underground stalwarts in their late 30s serve as arbiter is no less suffocating or unhealthy or burdensome than the millionare dj mafia in the uk

the question, rather, is how does the new blood establish its authority, credibility, position

if they're perceived as overly dependent on internet channels then they're gonna have a credibility problem

and, yes, perhaps the subterranean dj tribe networks of yore are something of a myth --

but again, that's the perception, i.e., subterranean networks back then versus trendspotters on the internet now

you're missing the most important part: grime doesn't venerate the dj like house music or even UKG did. it's a very producer/mc-centric form, like hip-hop. hip-hop djs get big now through winning a trick competition like dmc or being affiliated with a group (a-trak now tours as "KANYE WEST'S DJ!!!") - they're not rewarded for selection or for bringing new sounds to light. grime doesn't really hold with this dj-controls-the-vibe business - the tracks themselves reflect that.

also, 2-step was just a little too accessible to catch on with the hipster set - that was part of what i loved about playing it, being able to drop some cheesy r'n'b bootleg that i knew was hot but was sure to turn off the college radio/rave crowd. i got kicks out of being "transgressive" by trying to keep the music on the edge between too weird/too familiar. grime is firmly in the "weird" camp - obviously the sonics, but the london accents and slang are so thick that i think most people in the US who listen can only decipher bits and pieces. it's not a sound that's open to distribution by DJs in clubs.

 

[Melchior]

the US didn't have a 2step scene worth talking about much, really, because it was all secondary action.

This was sort of what I was trying to get at, I guess. I like grime a lot, just as I loved 2step, but I'd never think that NZ had a 'scene'.

What's interesting to me is that DnB (and I do mean DnB as opposed to jungle) is/was so popular in NZ at it's height. By far and away the most loyal electronic music scene (with loyal being a combination of popular and dedicated punters) in NZ. In Melbourne, half the people at big DnB parties seem to be kiwis as well. It's strange the way that it seemed to click.

there are rumors afloat that the initial post was a prank (which explains the rich language)

but if the prank succeeded in suckering us all in, that's simply because it touched upon real concerns

And it didn't really succeed, as the initial post was fairly promptly dismissed.

 

[blissblogger]

can't speak for anywhere else in america, but new york had a pretty promising 2step scene, some really decent-sized parties, great vibe (pleasanter and more euphoric than 2step events in London actually), good mix of people. it all seemed to be building towards real take-off. but what seemed like the critical threshold being crossed--a great partyiat the Frying Pan, not actually on the boat but on the dock--turned out to be the peak. then the music changed to more bass-2-dark and breaksy stuff and i think this turned off a lot of folk who'd been on the verge of conversion. then went it went into protogrimy MC stuff that was even less attractive. the main local djs went off into styles and have only recently come back to promoting grime events. that said 2step in NYC (and American as a whole) had a problem in the sense that it was all imported music. also it's true that it wasn't as dramatically new (and therefore galvanising) a subculture as rave, cos it was like UK bling more than anything. nonetheless i always thought it had a lot of potential on acocunt of being such welcoming and upful music but then the music actually tacked to the darkside.