"it was ok i suppose" : a non reaction to "polarazing" things

[luka]

Or expectations about the kind of pleasures, and the types of experience you might receive when in fact the thing works in a completely alien modality

 

[luka]

That it has coalesced around a wholly different set of values

 

[Clinamenic]

Or maybe not how to, but certainly that it could be done. Not that I can do it on command necessarily. Though that would be great.

I've found that it kinda jeopardizes the whole practice of criticism though (as you've pointed out about me: my inability to appreciate the negative). Whereas if you took a fixed and constant perspective to all works of art, rather than bending your perspective to see each work on its own terms, you would then arrive at a particular valuational spectrum whereby some works are better than others. Some are successes and some are failures according to this fixed perspective.

But I think I would still argue that, even given this perspective-bending approach, the great works are the ones that excel across numerous perspectives.

 

[Clinamenic]

Or expectations about the kind of pleasures, and the types of experience you might receive when in fact the thing works in a completely alien modality

Exactly, which is only alien so long as the aesthete is unable to adapt to its terms.

 

[luka]

This is one of the main reasons the old can't understand the music of the young and vice versa

 

[Clinamenic]

And some works may prove to be beyond the adaptive range of whoever is trying to appreciate it (edit: assuming they are even willing and able to bend their perspective). Like I'd have a tough time appreciating a lot of rap music.

 

[Clinamenic]

Among various other genres. Like disco.

 

[luka]

And some works may prove to be beyond the adaptive range of whoever is trying to appreciate it. Like I'd have a tough time appreciating a lot of rap music.

This is one of the things the time barrier thread is about

 

[luka]

But you can extend it out from just a matter of chronology into different social circles, different modes of being, etc

 

[luka]

Among various other genres. Like disco.

Some things rely fairly heavily on a drug-sound synergy

 

[Clinamenic]

And arguably the truly classic stuff is able to dig down into the roots, into the more universal territory, so the listener doesn't even have to do these gymnastics.

 

[Clinamenic]

Personally I think of how certain melodies are more or less universally associated with certain emotions or emotional movements, largely because of how these associations were established and spread socially, rather than upward-pitch melodies being naturally/intrinsically elating or uplifting.

But then again there may be more fundamental reasons for this, rather than a purely socially defined framework of meaning. But this is where my mind goes to science, and where we may differ.

 

[luka]

Well this is what I mean about artificial pleasures, where you do start to question if it's actually good why the need for the strenuous gymnastics

 

[luka]

And of course it raises old questions about your 'real self' and so on... Do I stand for something? Am I here to fight for some particular side or should I abstract myself into the void

 

[Clinamenic]

Well this is what I mean about artificial pleasures, where you do start to question if it's actually good why the need for the strenuous gymnastics

I think the closest thing to actual goodness is 1) the ease with which it resonates with 2) what proportion of people.

 

[luka]

Where most people would squirm is that that ignores what they would mark as depth, I reckon

 

[Clinamenic]

I.e. if it resonates with certain subcultures more or less exclusively, it may still be worthwhile doing these gymnastics to arrive at some simulation of the perspective of that subculture.

 

[Clinamenic]

Where most people would squirm is that that ignores what they would mark as depth, I reckon

Maybe depth and resonance here are similar concepts. By resonance I don't mean ear-worminess/catchiness, but more a basis for identifying with a given work.

 

[luka]

Gotcha

 

[Clinamenic]

So some works may have a depth which is primarily/exclusively appreciated in certain subcultures, whereas others may have a depth that is more generally appreciated. Of course my mind goes to the great composers of western musical notation, but beyond that there seem to be many pop music artists that have a globally appreciated depth.