Where does the culture war come from?

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
which ultimately was what i was hinting at. Biscuits is always decrying the lefts morality but he can't either ascend to the overcoming of religious thinking, or regress back into when religion was actually the dominant ideology tout court, I.E: in societies based on the extraction of tribute.

So he just ends up coming across as a sleazy pervert wanting to give kids a dickyback ride whenever he gets jolly baity.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
it's like the american white astrologer teenagers who convert to Islam because of some kind of insipid individual liberation theology they've fashioned for themselves. I hate it, I hate it!

They fail to realise that the class party puts an end to all idle chatter, opinions and gossip, because it is not the product of one individual or even worse a band of individual, but the condensation of time sequences. you obey because you learn through the historical thread.

these people live in a world where all that is solid melts into air, where even the enchanted world of religion is dispelled by capital.

are you really down with the medieval program?

people like @version always laugh at me but I really would be more terrible than Stalin if you gave me power. I know how to use it for an uncompromising modernism it would even scare the sadly departed padraig.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
i mean, i would definitely purge @craner first. i love the geezer but he never managed to dissuade k-punk from zizek's christian communist shtick, because it was non-threatening to him to have k-punk dancing that walz.

when in reality communists should offend everyone, lose no friends, alienate noone, yet declare subterranean war on the clergy and the family.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
gramsci basically got bordiga demoted from head of the PCd'I as he accorded with post-1924 bolshevisation and inadvertently/unwittingly contributed to the death of some of his comrades in WW II. yet, in imprisoned confinement at Ustica they had a 14 hour debate and Bordiga still wrote to gramsci's mum, true story.
 

other_life

bioconfused
"The central rabbinic text concerning abortion, M. Ohalot 7:6, states that if a woman is having difficulty giving birth, the midwife dismembers the fetus in utero to extract it to save the mother’s life, even in a full-term pregnancy. In such a difficult birthing situation, the fetus is considered a pursuer (rodef), pursuing the mother to kill her, and therefore can be killed to protect her. In Talmudic discussions concerning a pursuer, it is deemed appropriate to kill the pursuer (without incurring liability) to save the life of the one pursued (B. Sanhedrin 72b). Another position holds that the fetus, prior to the birth of its head, has not attained the status of human (nefesh). Whichever position is accepted, the fetus is to be dismembered in the case of a difficult birth."

"Another description of the fetus is that it is “a limb of its mother” (B. Ḥullin 58a, B. Bava Kama 78b-79a, B. Sanhedrin 80a, B. Nazir 51a, B. Gittin 23b, and B. Terumot 25a), indicating that it has no independent existence."

"Women were not considered to be obligated in the commandment of procreation(M. Yevamot 6:6). The discussion in B. Yevamot 65b deals with the case of Yehudit, the wife of Rabbi Ḥiyya, who suffered greatly with very difficult pregnancies—two sets of twins, one in which one baby’s birth preceded his twin by almost three months. Yehudit disguised herself and went before Rabbi Ḥiyya to ask whether women were obligated in procreation. When he responded in the negative, she partook of sama d’akarta/d’akara. This has been normally understood as being a contraceptive drug, but the root ’kr means both infertile and uprooting. It could, therefore, refer to an abortifacient uprooting a pregnancy."

"Tosafot (B. Sanhedrin 59a, d.h., leka midam; B. Ḥullin 33a, d.h., eḥad oved kokhavim) extended the Gentile prohibition of abortion to Jews but without legal liability; in other words, they considered it forbidden, but with no legal consequences. Elsewhere (Tosafot, B. Niddah 44b, d.h., ihu maet bereisha), they stated that it is permitted to kill the fetus."

"At no point in the responsa literature up to the twentieth century, then, is abortion considered murder. Many responsa allow abortion even when the mother’s life is not at stake, and lenient positions outnumber more stringent positions. Many more such responsa may have been given privately and not published. The bottom line is that the mother’s life always takes precedence over the life of the fetus until the head or majority of the body is born. Even then there is a preference to save the life of the mother if both will die. Disputes arise when the health and well-being of the mother are at stake."
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
"The central rabbinic text concerning abortion, M. Ohalot 7:6, states that if a woman is having difficulty giving birth, the midwife dismembers the fetus in utero to extract it to save the mother’s life, even in a full-term pregnancy. In such a difficult birthing situation, the fetus is considered a pursuer (rodef), pursuing the mother to kill her, and therefore can be killed to protect her. In Talmudic discussions concerning a pursuer, it is deemed appropriate to kill the pursuer (without incurring liability) to save the life of the one pursued (B. Sanhedrin 72b). Another position holds that the fetus, prior to the birth of its head, has not attained the status of human (nefesh). Whichever position is accepted, the fetus is to be dismembered in the case of a difficult birth."

"Another description of the fetus is that it is “a limb of its mother” (B. Ḥullin 58a, B. Bava Kama 78b-79a, B. Sanhedrin 80a, B. Nazir 51a, B. Gittin 23b, and B. Terumot 25a), indicating that it has no independent existence."

"Women were not considered to be obligated in the commandment of procreation(M. Yevamot 6:6). The discussion in B. Yevamot 65b deals with the case of Yehudit, the wife of Rabbi Ḥiyya, who suffered greatly with very difficult pregnancies—two sets of twins, one in which one baby’s birth preceded his twin by almost three months. Yehudit disguised herself and went before Rabbi Ḥiyya to ask whether women were obligated in procreation. When he responded in the negative, she partook of sama d’akarta/d’akara. This has been normally understood as being a contraceptive drug, but the root ’kr means both infertile and uprooting. It could, therefore, refer to an abortifacient uprooting a pregnancy."

"Tosafot (B. Sanhedrin 59a, d.h., leka midam; B. Ḥullin 33a, d.h., eḥad oved kokhavim) extended the Gentile prohibition of abortion to Jews but without legal liability; in other words, they considered it forbidden, but with no legal consequences. Elsewhere (Tosafot, B. Niddah 44b, d.h., ihu maet bereisha), they stated that it is permitted to kill the fetus."

"At no point in the responsa literature up to the twentieth century, then, is abortion considered murder. Many responsa allow abortion even when the mother’s life is not at stake, and lenient positions outnumber more stringent positions. Many more such responsa may have been given privately and not published. The bottom line is that the mother’s life always takes precedence over the life of the fetus until the head or majority of the body is born. Even then there is a preference to save the life of the mother if both will die. Disputes arise when the health and well-being of the mother are at stake."

Right but this idea of abortion as murder is a characteristically 20th century phenomenon. I don't have the fiqh texts to hand but it is also the case that the mothers life takes precedence in islam.

This is to do with the principle of kiyas, analogy and comparison.

what is quranically forbidden is to *explicitly* kill one's offspring because of poverty. In modern debates, these two diverging positions are amalgamated and things are muddied.

make no mistake, if you engage in unforced adultery you must bare the consequences of that (which by and large are lifelong isolation and ostracisation after the flogging. Hardly the progressive panorama imagined. But aborting foetuses due to unwanted pregnancy is a characteristically contemporary phenomenon.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
@mixed_biscuits Here's a nice one for you to chew over.

Circumstances under which abortion is approvededit

Under a 1977 abortion law, a termination committee can approve an abortion, under sub-section 316a,[10] in the following circumstances:

  1. The woman is younger than the legal marriage age in Israel (which currently is 18, raised from 17 in April 2013),[12] or older than forty. (This was later amended to also include women under the age of twenty.)[11]
  2. The pregnancy was conceived under illegal circumstances (rape, statutory rape, etc.), in an incestuous relationship, or outside of marriage.
  3. The fetus may have a physical or mental birth defect.
  4. Continued pregnancy may put the woman's life in risk, or damage her physically or mentally.

And yet...

Abortion remains a highly debated topic in women’s health in the Middle East and specifically in the occupied Palestinian territories (OPT), where it is illegal in most cases.

.....

As one lawyer from Gaza explained in an interview, “Abortion is illegal in all cases, even in extramarital pregnancy. It is only allowed for health reasons for the mother or for fetal anomalies. The law doesn’t allow for anything else, even for unmarried women or rape. They don’t do it.”


So lovely civilised Israel is where murdering babies is just fine, while those Islamo-Nazis in Hamas actually have the right idea about how, under most circumstances, every sperm is sacred! And at any rate, when it comes down to preventing a sentient existence that will know nothing but suffering, or 'eugenics' if you prefer, they are as bad as each other.
 

other_life

bioconfused
oh i agree that both the re-framing of abortion as murder and abortion on demand being commonplace are both characteristic of our times, and not really something antique-medieval halakha or fiqh can speak to (or something religious jurists can make norms about, for yes or for no, in most of the world today)
 

other_life

bioconfused
my position of course is that we can't go home - i say more modernity! we must produce unforeseen needs, passions and problems! a communism which is reduced to a new medieval communitarianism by a leveling catastrophe, a wiping out of modern conveniences would not be livable; must be refused. anthropologists and biologists have only described human evolution - the point is to change it
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
which again gets into what I am saying. legally it is nigh on impossible to prove adultery in islamic terms (four witness of exemplary pious character.) But precisely because of the vagueness of the legal requirement patriarchal authority asserts itself. Where American feminists and artfags misread this is to think that the laxity of the law is perverted by patriarchy, when in reality the laxity itself is necessary in a state structure based on land parcelisation, exacting of direct physical punishment and accruing a military surplus.

Logistically speaking it is impossible to have sharia in capitalism. the bureaucratisation of civil society and the development of the judiciary forecloses the necessary behavioural domain. This is what Hobbes was trying to hint at, from his Christian perspective granted.
 

other_life

bioconfused
that's an interesting point about official laxity in fiqh-halakha precisely bolstering patriarchal authority in the home.

as touching american jewry - there is an attempt at recouping, scrapbooking medieval jewish sources to force some kind of wedge in capitalist modernity, as some kind of protest against assimilation and zionism; but precisely from texts, and precisely in a situation where the traditional problematic is no longer possible - but not yet admitted as also undesirable.

reconstructionist judaism criticises orthodox judaism as a modern phenomenon, not having a monopoly on continuity with rabbinic tradition, or in some wise 'precisely not rabbinic enough'. jewish renewal worship is in practice an uneasy resting tension between morsels of scholem and binyamin, american psychedelia, the borscht-belt/campfire song american yiddishist aesthetic and something inadmissably, unplaceably 'novus ordo'.
and reconstructionism's criticisms of orthodoxy are not wrong. jewish renewal spaces are often pleasant, a better place to decompress, make friends or meditate than mainline americanist-zionist reform spaces.

but what is not digested - maybe even disavowed - is the jewish enlightenment. the jewish enlightenment as anti-clerical, individualist - yet at the same time opposed to the personalist-imaginary error in theology (super-spinozist and re-maimonidean) - and modernist. modernist in the 'soviets plus electricity makes communism' sense, modernist in the sense of blowing mean raspberries at all rural idiocy.
the jewish enlightenment was an exponent of the heroic-promethean era of the bourgeoisie in the west, of a twin birth with the worker's movement in the east (viz. maskilim lecturing on anatomy with real skeletons to workers in factories in michael lowy).

what is obvious but never said or built on is that we are the heirs and benefactors of those who wanted to break with hazal, to break out of our enclave position and the government of the fathers - to compass all the world that could be compassed and learn everything that could be learned. to cease meeting a heaven misconceived as personal, jealous and providential with trembling, prostration and for the first time walk, practice godliness - to demand no guarantees from an always incomplete Eternity and be the guarantors of our own welfare.
 

other_life

bioconfused
in short: atheism and spiritual maturity, materialism and the mystical view are the rational kernel and secret each of the other - Seize the Time
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
@mixed_biscuits Here's a nice one for you to chew over.


And yet...




So lovely civilised Israel is where murdering babies is just fine, while those Islamo-Nazis in Hamas actually have the right idea about how, under most circumstances, every sperm is sacred! And at any rate, when it comes down to preventing a sentient existence that will know nothing but suffering, or 'eugenics' if you prefer, they are as bad as each other.
Response please, @mixed_biscuits
 
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