are you guys forgetting that hip-hop's jazz-sampling phase didnt really last that long (and not only that, but it wasnt like everyone was trying to aspire to free-jazz or anything, most of the samples were soul-jazz i think) and that gang starr did away with the jazziness by the time of daily operation and hard to earn (which was maybe premier at his starkest) and while you still had groups like organized konfusion and whoever sampling jazz breaks, the real stars at the time were biggie, wu-tang, nas, black moon et al - and they werent really sampling anything obviously jazzy at all. they were meant to be about 'back to basics'. anyway, half the time, with hip-hop its not necessarily all about the actual source of the sample, or even the musical content of it, its the sonics, the texture, the ambience, and the technique by which its worked into the beat. i dont think any of those early 90s records were weighed down with the pompousness of aspiring to jazz 'high-mindedness' per se, its not like there were 10-15 minute epic tracks/suites being made.
hip-hop, where to begin?
- Thread starter domtyler
- Start date
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droid
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mms said:
Just because somethings got 'Jazz' in the title, doesnt necessarily mean it's inherently derivative. Check out 'Jazz Primitives' by Trace or 'Its Jazzy' by Roni Size, or any early Hidden Agenda stuff. Theres only one tune with 'Jazz' in the title on low end theory anyhows, and Tribe were, in general fairly eclectic with their sample sources, esp in the first few LP's...
I dont get the 'weak breaks' thing either. On their last three LP's in particular, Tribe mastered that ultra clean, ultra compressed break. Their beats were head and shoulders above nearly everyone else production-wise. The snares on the Love Movement in particular will take your head off on a big system if your not careful. IMO tribes production sound WAS the sound of the future back in the 90's, and contemporary R+B has certainly borrowed a few of their production tricks. Im not going to go into their creative use of loops and samples, as Id end up writing a mini-review
, but it strikes me as odd to criticise a hip-hop artist for sampling Jazz - havent Jazz breaks and loops been used (in some form) alongside R+B, Soul, Funk, Disco and Rock sources ever since people started sampling?
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if youre gonna rally against jazz loops, you might as well say the beginning of the end was when hip-hop started to sample more wholesale around 86 or so and aspired to more of a familiar (in so far as bigger chunks of samples being used rather than interjected snippets) rolling groove-based sound where soul and funk samples were prominent, rather than the sparse, jagged drum machine-led template of the larry smith/rick rubin/mantronix era.
Well looks like I missed the party being off yesterday, but here's my tuppence anyhow.
And on the subject of jazz-influenced hiphop in the 90s - it lasted 2-3 years at most I reckon: 1990-92. In that time ATCQ and Gangstarr went more minimal and Pete Rock produced about a million different people using the same horn samples but still sounded great.
Sure, there were jazzy albums out for another couple of years or so but when Dre dropped The Chronic in 92 suddenly every man and his dog was using that high-pitched PFunk noise. Ice Cube dropped two killer LPs around then too and neither were jazzy and Lench Mob productions were truly on a roll. The other big players then were the Hit Squad: EPMD, Redman, Keith Murray, Das EFX, K-Solo and that woman who was sposedly fresher than Redman but I can't remember her name - none of which were jazzy...
In contrast to yourself, by the time Wu-Tang dropped 36 Chambers and Biggie released his debut LP, it seemed that everyone had become obsessed with Keeping It Real and shooting each other so I began to lose interest.
You're right - I wasn't thinking of people like MC Tunes, Mikee B or Ya Kid K as rappers, more just MCs. I guess that fits with mms's:henry s said:
Apart from the NY examples you state (and I'd also forgotten the JBs "I'll House You") seems fusing rap and dance was more of a British/Euro thing. Certainly I never heard a US artist like Silver Bullet (who was widely dissed for being too technoey), Rebel MC with his Wickedest Sound or the Ragga Twins. Not sure I would have found out about 'em anyway as I only read HHC at the time! I can certainly remember Chuck D railing against using computers in hip-hop (hence his preference for working with Anthrax - proper music apparently) and several HHC journos mentioning hip-hop's phobia of new technology - ironic that given what hip-hop did for the sampler!mms said:
And on the subject of jazz-influenced hiphop in the 90s - it lasted 2-3 years at most I reckon: 1990-92. In that time ATCQ and Gangstarr went more minimal and Pete Rock produced about a million different people using the same horn samples but still sounded great.
Sure, there were jazzy albums out for another couple of years or so but when Dre dropped The Chronic in 92 suddenly every man and his dog was using that high-pitched PFunk noise. Ice Cube dropped two killer LPs around then too and neither were jazzy and Lench Mob productions were truly on a roll. The other big players then were the Hit Squad: EPMD, Redman, Keith Murray, Das EFX, K-Solo and that woman who was sposedly fresher than Redman but I can't remember her name - none of which were jazzy...
In contrast to yourself, by the time Wu-Tang dropped 36 Chambers and Biggie released his debut LP, it seemed that everyone had become obsessed with Keeping It Real and shooting each other so I began to lose interest.
Diggedy Derek
Stray Dog
Hang on though, if we look at the best hip hop records of each era, of course it turns out many or most of them had no jazziness on them at all. The question is what the average stuff sounds like, and I think it's certainly true that a lot of average and mediocre hip hop has resorted to faux jazzyness. When you look at the less-good albums from the likes of Common and De La Soul, they show hip hop struggling to escape from the sheer weight of
black music legacy.
Strangely though, listening to Semtex on 1xtra recently, there wasn't a single jazzy moment in his entire set. Crunk has blown jazziness away, like Cillit Bang or something.
black music legacy.
Strangely though, listening to Semtex on 1xtra recently, there wasn't a single jazzy moment in his entire set. Crunk has blown jazziness away, like Cillit Bang or something.
the jazziness and general 'dont tell me 93 ended please' attitude carried over in the underground, it died with 'big-name' rappers around 96 or so... timbaland still samples (just not really soul or funk or jazz or the usual sources) but for the most part, the synths took over years ago in popular hip-hop - semtex doesnt really play east coast underground stuff so of course he wont be playing insight or whoever (dont necessarily blame him either)
These days exploring hip hop is a lifetime journey, dom got a good jump off tho'... I know it's way late in the game but I had to put in my 2 cents on some overlooked isht and some of the stuff you were talking about.
Dom why don't you peep the movies "Wildstyle", "Krush Groove" and "Beat Street"... 3 80's masterpieces that'll give you a good idea of where it started at and an intro to the culture... then check some old school artists Africa Bambaata & Soul Sonic Force (oh, so thats where all those beasties samples came from), Grandmaster Flash, Whodini, etc.
There's a huge wealth of great tracks from the early days of hip-hop... Personally I love the electro hip-hop sound you can here on a lot of old tracks, mantronik, some old ice-t, prodigy, egyptian lover, jonsun crew and many one-hit-wonder type tracks like man parrish's "boogie down bronx". I highly recommend this site http://www.unkut.com/?category_name=bootleg for some great hip-hop from all eras.
From there it all goes into Eric B & Rakim, RUN DMC etc, then the 88 golden era sounds, then gangsta explodes...NWA etc... miami bass rap 2 live crew... early 90's wu revolution, g-funk etc, then underground hip hop, club hip-hop, blah blah... I'm no expert but I'm a big fan of many styles of hip-hop.
A good way to hear the best of the past is old dj mixtapes.
I recomend mix master mike's "neckthrust one" for some late 80's / early 90's stuff...
D-Styles' "inspiration information" for some great electro-ish / original gangsta / miami flavours",
Rawkus presents "soundbombing volume 1" (evil dee is on the mix...lol... don't bother with vol 2 or 3) for some company flow era quality underground hip hop.
to everyone else re:def jux ... they had potential at the start but I think they lost the plot collectively... and EL-P is a talented motherfucker but he got too whiney... I still think he's got some good rhymes sometimes but i don't wanna hear about his absent father complexes and family life which is what I hated the most about fandam. Some nice tunes still sneak out of that label now and then... c-rayz walz has his moments, the perceptionists lp has a few gems, and love them or hate them... CAN OX has a new lp of a live reunion show with some nu material and unreleased stuff coming out soon... not getting my hopes up but i'm definately gonna check that one cos I think COLD VEIN is a straight up classic although it didn't take long for vasts head to swell up like a zeppelin and start leakin hot air allover the place. I love both their rhymes on that album but Vordul is amazing and was almost completely overlooked in the press.
ok i stop rant now.
Dom why don't you peep the movies "Wildstyle", "Krush Groove" and "Beat Street"... 3 80's masterpieces that'll give you a good idea of where it started at and an intro to the culture... then check some old school artists Africa Bambaata & Soul Sonic Force (oh, so thats where all those beasties samples came from), Grandmaster Flash, Whodini, etc.
There's a huge wealth of great tracks from the early days of hip-hop... Personally I love the electro hip-hop sound you can here on a lot of old tracks, mantronik, some old ice-t, prodigy, egyptian lover, jonsun crew and many one-hit-wonder type tracks like man parrish's "boogie down bronx". I highly recommend this site http://www.unkut.com/?category_name=bootleg for some great hip-hop from all eras.
From there it all goes into Eric B & Rakim, RUN DMC etc, then the 88 golden era sounds, then gangsta explodes...NWA etc... miami bass rap 2 live crew... early 90's wu revolution, g-funk etc, then underground hip hop, club hip-hop, blah blah... I'm no expert but I'm a big fan of many styles of hip-hop.
A good way to hear the best of the past is old dj mixtapes.
I recomend mix master mike's "neckthrust one" for some late 80's / early 90's stuff...
D-Styles' "inspiration information" for some great electro-ish / original gangsta / miami flavours",
Rawkus presents "soundbombing volume 1" (evil dee is on the mix...lol... don't bother with vol 2 or 3) for some company flow era quality underground hip hop.
to everyone else re:def jux ... they had potential at the start but I think they lost the plot collectively... and EL-P is a talented motherfucker but he got too whiney... I still think he's got some good rhymes sometimes but i don't wanna hear about his absent father complexes and family life which is what I hated the most about fandam. Some nice tunes still sneak out of that label now and then... c-rayz walz has his moments, the perceptionists lp has a few gems, and love them or hate them... CAN OX has a new lp of a live reunion show with some nu material and unreleased stuff coming out soon... not getting my hopes up but i'm definately gonna check that one cos I think COLD VEIN is a straight up classic although it didn't take long for vasts head to swell up like a zeppelin and start leakin hot air allover the place. I love both their rhymes on that album but Vordul is amazing and was almost completely overlooked in the press.
ok i stop rant now.
peep game on new can ox!
http://myspace.com/cannibalox
nasty myspace design but yo there's a song with RZA!
http://myspace.com/cannibalox
nasty myspace design but yo there's a song with RZA!
Tribe might be good but too fucking many plays at fraternity parties killed those songs. everytime I hear a track from Low End I see drunk white freshmen jocks "gettin' funky" around the keg...
were these the sentiments you were going to echo?
"I have officially joined the masses in their admiration of 2-pac. never knew what it was all about until recently (foolishly prejudiced against widely popular artists in my younger days). I'll be wearing one o them oversized T's with the big ass print on it soon.
the songs are real. "so many tears", "Dear Mama", "Fuck the World", "2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted", "No More Pain", "California Love"... the list of solid gold classics just don't stop. you know they come from a real place. All Eyez on Me is an album I will always return to.
and as cliche as the self-fulfilling-prophesies thing is, as "contrived" and "played out" as the posturing is supposed to be, I can not keep the ironic, dismissive smirk on my face when one of the songs is playin'... can't help but feel it for what it is and see the world through his eyes for a minute.
sometimes the political message is so clear and true, and the tough-guy verses sit so well on top of the sometimes breazy, easy-going jazzy-breaks and funk samples. the production on his numerous records is very consistant... consistantly understated steady rockin' with nothing in terms of bullshit or frills."
DavidD said:
were these the sentiments you were going to echo?
"I have officially joined the masses in their admiration of 2-pac. never knew what it was all about until recently (foolishly prejudiced against widely popular artists in my younger days). I'll be wearing one o them oversized T's with the big ass print on it soon.
the songs are real. "so many tears", "Dear Mama", "Fuck the World", "2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted", "No More Pain", "California Love"... the list of solid gold classics just don't stop. you know they come from a real place. All Eyez on Me is an album I will always return to.
and as cliche as the self-fulfilling-prophesies thing is, as "contrived" and "played out" as the posturing is supposed to be, I can not keep the ironic, dismissive smirk on my face when one of the songs is playin'... can't help but feel it for what it is and see the world through his eyes for a minute.
sometimes the political message is so clear and true, and the tough-guy verses sit so well on top of the sometimes breazy, easy-going jazzy-breaks and funk samples. the production on his numerous records is very consistant... consistantly understated steady rockin' with nothing in terms of bullshit or frills."
sing_minimal
Well-known member
has anyone talked or heard dj krush speak english? there always seem to be an interpreter present when he gives interviews..
Poisonous Dart
Lone Swordsman
Mind you all...
This is a monumental moment. A Hip Hop related thread that I NEVER ONCE posted on. 2005? Damn, that was a long time ago!
One.
This is a monumental moment. A Hip Hop related thread that I NEVER ONCE posted on. 2005? Damn, that was a long time ago!
One.
luka
Well-known member
Man, that's great. Thanks.
mos dan
fact music
shameless self-publicity / fear of being e-hounded by hairy-palmed oasis fans all day:
run come save me - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/04/gallagher_knows_nothing_about.html
run come save me - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/04/gallagher_knows_nothing_about.html