DUBSTEP- breaking news, gossip, slander, lies etc

[benjybars]

Skepta is banned from FWD. Long story.

Ms Dynamite was there not that recently.

MCs are down FWD far less frequently these days. Your best bet is to head down when Tubby is playing coz he's most likely bring d double and the generals.

how right you were jammer and newham generals came down last night.. couldn't properly hear them but still got me hyped up differently.. bare brappage!!

 

[Numbers]

Here you are:

Dubstep's geographical obsessions tend to overdetermination. Fans on message boards laud its 'urban' roots on the sound of the city, as though failing water mains and foggy affect were enough to found a genre upon. Dubstep producers have the irritating habit of relying on 'Eastern' string or vocal samples to lend the steadfastly local music an exotic patina.

Esp. this exotic patina is thoroughly correct.

 

[nomos]

If that's referring to a Skull Disco release (004 or 005), it would be a Shackleton (not Appleblim) track with the Eastern 'patina.' Except, given everything I've heard from Shackleton (including a number of CD-Rs) it's not superficial Orientalist appropriation but him drawing on a specific musical background that he appears to know a good deal about. Second, conflating message board chatter with the music itself is a cheap way to diss the genre. Third, I'd generally rather listen to music that makes some claim on everyday life.

Get someone who knows the music to review it.

 

[gek-opel]

I fail to see how dubstep exoticism is any more prevalent than the same thing in Grime, Hip Hop, R'n'B etc etc... its a more generalised "urban" trope, isn't it, rather than just being a cover for "local music for local people"???--- which given how quickly dubstep is spreading internationally seems pretty way of the mark! Still, Sherburne LIKES dubstep, he's not that bad!

 

[nomos]

Still, Sherburne LIKES dubstep, he's not that bad!

Does he? I haven't looked at the Wire for ages apart from the Kode 9 invisible jukebox. I'd like to see this whole review though, rather than just a clipping.

I fail to see how dubstep exoticism is any more prevalent than the same thing in Grime, Hip Hop, R'n'B etc etc...

Well exactly. Not to mention that in a city like London (just like Toronto or Vancouver), depending where you spend most of your time, you're quite likely to be surrounded by musics from South and East Asia. It seems natural enough to me if some of that leaks into your own music if the music you make is meant to reflect on your environment in any way.

 

[Numbers]

If that's referring to a Skull Disco release (004 or 005), it would be a Shackleton (not Appleblim) track with the Eastern 'patina.' Except, given everything I've heard from Shackleton (including a number of CD-Rs) it's not superficial Orientalist appropriation but him drawing on a specific musical background that he appears to know a good deal about. Second, conflating message board chatter with the music itself is a cheap way to diss the genre. Third, I'd generally rather listen to music that makes some claim on everyday life.

Get someone who knows the music to review it.

In the review, Shackleton was righteously considered as an exception to above mentioned critique of easy exoticism.

In general, I still believe Sherburn is right though: same as a bunch of reggae samples are supposed to make up for the dubby part of dubstep, oriental samples are often and especially unquestionedly considered as some make-up to spice up a track.

 

[tate]

Blackdown certainly writes a lot about the 'asian'-inflected aspects of dubstep. Here is a quote from the November 27, 2005 post on his blog (which I edited where noted):

Martin Clark: "Speaking of Asian dubstep, on Monday I did my dubstep soulja duty and went into Radio 1. Soulja duty comes round now and then . . . [inventory of duties] . . . Anyway through a journalism contact (hold tight Rahul Verma) Nihal from “…& Bobby Friction” got in touch about Asian-influenced dubstep. So I found myself in a Radio 1 listening room checking out Distance’s ‘Fallen’ and ‘Temptation,’ Kode 9 & Spaceape’s ‘Fukkaz,’ Skream and Loefah’s ‘Indian’ and ‘Monsoon’ remixes, L Wiz’ Habibi and Skream’s ‘Cheeky…’ over some phat speakers."

There is also Blackdown's long blog post on Feb 1, 2006, about kode 9's tune "fukkaz" and sino-grime.

 

[nomos]

...a bunch of reggae samples are supposed to make up for the dubby part of dubstep, oriental samples are often and especially unquestionedly considered as some make-up to spice up a track.

Yeah fair enough, but it's also another case of a critic taking a part for the whole. There's no reason for there not to be reggae or 'Asian' samples in dubstep. The problem is, as you say, the tacking-on of these elements (by some producers, some of the time). The other side of that though is onlookers being (often loudly) unable to to discern the difference between exoticist pastiche and something more organic.

Good about the Shack part.

 

[tatarsky]

Haven't read the review, but to me it seems like dissing something in dubstep for 'pastiching' eastern sounds is pretty lazy. It's clear that eastern (meaning particular modes/harmonic minor shit presumably) melodies can work wonderfully in dubstep (big up distance), as admitted by Sherburne himself, so it seems a pretty weak attack to me.

Not sure where this distinction between 'exoticist pastiche' and 'something more organic' comes from exactly. I think it's ludicrous to say that an artist must have some cultural ties to the source material here, so that it may be 'organic' and therefore valid in some way, which seems to be whats being suggested here. What's wrong with artists using a particular reference to explore/recontextualise their area of expertise? Innovations would be severely limited if this kind of cross-pollination was off limits.

If he's saying that it's not sufficient to merely rip some eastern melodies and hey presto you've got something worthy, then fair enough, its not, but it's also not the reason why its bad in the first place. Far better if the review said basically "yeah, there's some eastern stuff going on here, but it's pretty dull and doesn't really work, heard it done better elsewhere etc.". Which, erm, given that i haven't read the review...may be what he said...

 

[nomos]

What's wrong with artists using a particular reference to explore/recontextualise their area of expertise? Innovations would be severely limited if this kind of cross-pollination was off limits.

I think you're saying almost the same thing as me here. But by 'exoticist pastiche' I meant appropriation purely for exotic effect to evoke some kind of ethnic otherness. The most common example I think of is getting some bloke to mutter something about Rastafari in a dance tune just because it'll add a little ethnic spice and vague oppositionality to a track, not because the producer has any relationship to the faith. (Based only on the few lines quoted here, it seems that Sherburne is painting all of dubstep with this brush.) Speaking just in musical terms, think of the music in that travel show 'Lonely Planet.' No matter where they are in the world, the 'ethnic music' starts up first, and then, every time, it magically morphs into a very standard 4/4, apirational, techno tune around 130 BPM. It's grabbing something foreign, cutting off the parts that stick out and slipping it into a box they made before they got there. 'Something more organic' was my lazy way of distinguishing this sort of artifice from any number of ways that music and musicians engage the everyday cultural influences that surround them. I'm not talking about any sort of essential ethnic link but the interfacing of cultures, where they inform eachother and can start to become one another. One of the things that I find exciting about a scene like dubstep, or jungle or hardcore in the 90s, is the way that music creates a field where these absolute ideas about ethnicity, race and origins are broken down and newness springs up. Dubstep has both tendencies going on, but given the intense multiculture of a city like London, I think it's rash to suggest that it's merely Orientalising rather than reflecting what its makers see and hear everyday. And it doesn't have to be all about London. Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Sydney - loads of places have this sort of intense cultural mixing going on and it's bound to lead to tracks that don't sound like we expect the producers to look.

 

[the undisputed truth]

I'm really looking forward to Elton John making hiphop.

 

[the undisputed truth]

Get your sample on and slam that halfstep under it just because you can. God knows dubstep needs it more then this needs dubstep !

Take this global journey into self-discovery. Ancient flutes of bamboo, bone and stone give voice to wisdom and light. Pure melodic traditions from the heart of history.

Genre: Ambient
Year: 2002
Size: 93.0 MB (97,619,495 bytes), 253Kbps VBR
Your Download-Link: Grab via Rapidshare

Tracks:
01 - There's a Fire Deep in the Hill - Native American
02 - A Stor Mo Chroi'- An Air of Emigrants - Irish
03 - The Orphan Song - Chinese
04 - The Ancient Shepherd and the Willow - Norwegian
05 - His Royal Soul Has Flown Away - African
06 - Where the Moutain Begins - South American
07 - Swimming Near Emerald Cliffs - Chinese
08 - Brother Timothy the Storyteller - Irish
09 - Eagle Dreams - Native American
10 - Bedua, Song of Affection and Concern - African
11 - She Dances with Her Soul - Indian

 

[tate]

Not sure where this distinction between 'exoticist pastiche' and 'something more organic' comes from exactly. I think it's ludicrous to say that an artist must have some cultural ties to the source material here, so that it may be 'organic' and therefore valid in some way, which seems to be whats being suggested here. What's wrong with artists using a particular reference to explore/recontextualise their area of expertise? Innovations would be severely limited if this kind of cross-pollination was off limits.

Well no one is saying this, least of all Philip Sherburne. Sherburne is far too knowledgeable and experienced a critic to advocate the kind of cliched viewpoint you have tentatively attributed to him here. I can't imagine anyone who has been involved with music in the rave continuum actually saying that a person must 'have some cultural ties to the source material' in order that the use of the sample be 'organic' and therefore 'valid'!

 

[the undisputed truth]

I can't imagine anyone who has been involved with music in the rave continuum actually saying that a person must 'have some cultural ties to the source material' in order that the use of the sample be 'organic' and therefore valid!

I could do more than imagine it. I've seen it on these very boards. Quite possibly this very thread.

I also forgot to add that title of that album I linked to. It's 'Lifescapes - world flute' and it's great.

 

[nomos]

'Organic' was a poor word choice but i think i've explained what i mean.

I can't imagine anyone who has been involved with music in the rave continuum actually saying that a person must 'have some cultural ties to the source material' in order that the use of the sample be 'organic' and therefore 'valid'!

Well it depends how you define 'cultural ties' but it's very common to see it used in the most reductive sense on message boards and in print: describing certain styles as 'black' (or 'working class') music (or implying as much, when they're all multi-ethnic, transnational, and have complicated relationships to class) and thereby setting up all sorts of inauthenticity tropes.

 

[Slothrop]

I think you're saying almost the same thing as me here. But by 'exoticist pastiche' I meant appropriation purely for exotic effect to evoke some kind of ethnic otherness. The most common example I think of is getting some bloke to mutter something about Rastafari in a dance tune just because it'll add a little ethnic spice and vague oppositionality to a track, not because the producer has any relationship to the faith. (Based only on the few lines quoted here, it seems that Sherburne is painting all of dubstep with this brush.) Speaking just in musical terms, think of the music in that travel show 'Lonely Planet.' No matter where they are in the world, the 'ethnic music' starts up first, and then, every time, it magically morphs into a very standard 4/4, apirational, techno tune around 130 BPM. It's grabbing something foreign, cutting off the parts that stick out and slipping it into a box they made before they got there. 'Something more organic' was my lazy way of distinguishing this sort of artifice from any number of ways that music and musicians engage the everyday cultural influences that surround them.

Hmmm... I'm not convinced that there's really a Universal Law of Ethnic Influence that really works other than 'is it a good tune or not.' There's still a difference between superficially tacking something on to make a dull tune appear interesting and superficially tacking something on to make a great tune better. See also film samples.

 

[the undisputed truth]

I find that most, if not all of the tunes sampling ethnic music in dubstep have little of interest were the sample in question removed.

 

[Slothrop]

I find that most, if not all of the tunes sampling ethnic music in dubstep have little of interest were the sample in question removed.

Possibly a better way of putting it would have been that it's bad if the most interesting thing you can find to say about it is that it's 'a bit ethnic', then. Whereas having atmosphere, space, structure, bass weight etc and being 'a bit ethnic' is great. Cf Qawwali, for instance...

 

[nomos]

Hmmm... I'm not convinced that there's really a Universal Law of Ethnic Influence

I didn't say anything of the sort.

 

[tatarsky]

A stab at the distinction

I think you're saying almost the same thing as me here. But by 'exoticist pastiche' I meant appropriation purely for exotic effect to evoke some kind of ethnic otherness. The most common example I think of is getting some bloke to mutter something about Rastafari in a dance tune just because it'll add a little ethnic spice and vague oppositionality to a track, not because the producer has any relationship to the faith. (Based only on the few lines quoted here, it seems that Sherburne is painting all of dubstep with this brush.) Speaking just in musical terms, think of the music in that travel show 'Lonely Planet.' No matter where they are in the world, the 'ethnic music' starts up first, and then, every time, it magically morphs into a very standard 4/4, apirational, techno tune around 130 BPM. It's grabbing something foreign, cutting off the parts that stick out and slipping it into a box they made before they got there. 'Something more organic' was my lazy way of distinguishing this sort of artifice from any number of ways that music and musicians engage the everyday cultural influences that surround them. I'm not talking about any sort of essential ethnic link but the interfacing of cultures, where they inform eachother and can start to become one another. One of the things that I find exciting about a scene like dubstep, or jungle or hardcore in the 90s, is the way that music creates a field where these absolute ideas about ethnicity, race and origins are broken down and newness springs up. Dubstep has both tendencies going on, but given the intense multiculture of a city like London, I think it's rash to suggest that it's merely Orientalising rather than reflecting what its makers see and hear everyday. And it doesn't have to be all about London. Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Sydney - loads of places have this sort of intense cultural mixing going on and it's bound to lead to tracks that don't sound like we expect the producers to look.

Hmm, I think we're more or less on the same page here. And yes, worse than the poor invocations of eastern influence, are the poor takes on dub, and they're much more prevalent. For me, the most boring dubstep tunes are the ones that take the dub part far to seriously, and put on some lazy off-beat synth stabs and the like. These seem much less vulnerable to attack than their eastern counterparts though, presumably because there are far more black people than brown ones around the scene.

Still, as much as i think we agree on the fact that it's fair play (and indeed, invaluable at times) for artists to use foreign sounds, you still seem to be suggesting that the distinction lies down some geographical path...that to avoid Orientalism (as we'll agree to call it) it helps if the makers 'see and hear [these influences] everyday'. I'm not sure I'd go along with this. What distinguishes Qawwali (the ultimate example here surely) from lesser attempts? Surely nothing to do with the geography of the situation?

Rather, I'd argue that such references are absolutely fair game no matter how close geographically/culturally you are to them. The distinction comes in the manner in which those references are handled. The problem comes if all the artist does is to take the cliches from the foreign material and juxtapose it with their more familiar territory. To extrapolate a theory, you could suggest that this is inherently derogatory, as it reduces a whole culture to a soundbite version, and one that ignores the diversity and history of such a culture, treating them as a fixed entity without any capacity for change, growth, or cultural involvement with others.

The more 'organic' (valid) approach is one which takes the references and plays around with them, interprets them through their own musical/cultural filters, getting to the essence of said sound, but not doing so using the tried and tested cliches, thus demonstrating a deeper level of understanding. This respects the foreign culture as a living breathing entity, embracing an open, interested mulitculturalism.