RIUASA Panel in NYC
- Thread starter Woebot
- Start date
i went, but had to scratch and claw to get in
evidently you had to have an advance ticket, but as i don't have a credit card (primarily b/c i don't trust myself, secondarily for philosophical reasons), i had no such ticket
resorted to two tactics to get in
first, i told the doorman that he had to let me in b/c i had a cd to give to the author
second, i said that if i were in his shoes, i'd be a whole lot cooler about the entire proposition and let me in -- this seemed to get to him, and he let me in 30 seconds later
so i walked in late -- though in fact i had showed up early, around 6:15, but was advised to have a drink at the bar
main impression is that the panel didn't last very long -- it was over by 8 pm b/c next show was set to go on?????
as for the speakers . . . .
china burg -- dressed in black, soft spoken, came off as mature and (nowadays) conservative (not politically, but lifestyle-wise) and sensible -- talked about how MARS band members were totally invested in the project and spent lots of time practicing -- but did say they were trying to push music forward in MODERNIST fashion -- that despite appearance of artistic self-indulgence there was much DISCIPLINE involved
vivien goldman -- still working a kinda reggae look -- orange dress with adidas-like stripes -- was quite interesting insofar as she discussed how brit post-punks were heavily into and influenced by black music, especially reggae, in contradistinction to the much more racially segregated american scene (remarks supported by james chance) -- said she used to spend hours at rough trade record shop listening to new reggae records, which she'd then review best of -- also talked about how SENSITIVE and intelligent john lydon was -- and also noted how back in post-punk era the divide b/w journalists and musicians was not nearly so great (and false) as it is today, that people tended to see themselves in maoist fashion as "cultural workers," i.e., that people have multiple talents, not merely to create music, but to write about music -- i.e., the musicians were themselves critics, and critics helped determine the direction of music -- and all were cultural workers, producers of culture
james chance -- said that best thing for music in the states right now would be "general societal collapse" and went on to note how nyc was teetering upon bankruptcy during the post-punk period, unpoliced steets downtown, rent so cheap that nobody actually had to work for a living -- talked about how he began playing in nyc at soho loft parties, which was a sorta hippie scene, w/ black jazz musicians from chicago and st loo, but an audience of white hippie-folk seated indian-style, which he knew was not his scene and so he next sought out cbgb's -- said that nyc at that time was seriously divided by racial tension -- you either did the black scene, or you did the white scene (and the loft scene was fucked up b/c black musicians w/ easy-going white hippy audience) -- also noted that when he first went to cbgb's nobody talked to him b/c if you weren't in a band, they didn't want to know you, but that this was a great motivating force for him, i.e., to simply show to others that he was worth talking to and getting to know
steven daly -- probably the most outspoken panelist -- took a hardline against the younger generation and said he felt insulted by the likes of green day and the strokes -- at same time, he was the voice of the uk provinces, i.e, where vivien goldman could get deep into reggae, people in glasgow could not -- also spoke a lot about "geographic destiny," i.e., about how the conditions in uk allowed for mass musical movements, such that you had all kinds of seemingly identical punk bands in uk, whereas conditions in usa (much more geographically dispersed) seem to foster bands with a more individualistic identity
MY CHIEF COMPLAINT -- choice of venue -- this was my first time at mo pitkins, and i was not impressed by the operation -- the organizers of the panel should have found a space that would have allowed the conversation to continue deep into the night -- instead, the show came to a quick end at 8 pm -- granted, people went downstairs to the bar area afterwards, but it wasn't the kind of scene i was hoping for
HOWEVER, i'm completely psyched for next saturday night, march 11th, at nublu = my usual hangout -- and i told dan selzer, who's never been there, that he should play whatever damn records he wants, b/c all he needs to make nublu rock is 10 people dancing -- and that, moreover, he can be confident that there'll be at least 10 people there ready to work with him -- my only concern is that the place will be so flooded by music critics that there'll be no room to dance (i.e., i'm flashing back on nublu 3rd anniversary week when the kudu/brazilian girls night was a total nightmare b/c absolutely no room to move)
evidently you had to have an advance ticket, but as i don't have a credit card (primarily b/c i don't trust myself, secondarily for philosophical reasons), i had no such ticket
resorted to two tactics to get in
first, i told the doorman that he had to let me in b/c i had a cd to give to the author
second, i said that if i were in his shoes, i'd be a whole lot cooler about the entire proposition and let me in -- this seemed to get to him, and he let me in 30 seconds later
so i walked in late -- though in fact i had showed up early, around 6:15, but was advised to have a drink at the bar
main impression is that the panel didn't last very long -- it was over by 8 pm b/c next show was set to go on?????
as for the speakers . . . .
china burg -- dressed in black, soft spoken, came off as mature and (nowadays) conservative (not politically, but lifestyle-wise) and sensible -- talked about how MARS band members were totally invested in the project and spent lots of time practicing -- but did say they were trying to push music forward in MODERNIST fashion -- that despite appearance of artistic self-indulgence there was much DISCIPLINE involved
vivien goldman -- still working a kinda reggae look -- orange dress with adidas-like stripes -- was quite interesting insofar as she discussed how brit post-punks were heavily into and influenced by black music, especially reggae, in contradistinction to the much more racially segregated american scene (remarks supported by james chance) -- said she used to spend hours at rough trade record shop listening to new reggae records, which she'd then review best of -- also talked about how SENSITIVE and intelligent john lydon was -- and also noted how back in post-punk era the divide b/w journalists and musicians was not nearly so great (and false) as it is today, that people tended to see themselves in maoist fashion as "cultural workers," i.e., that people have multiple talents, not merely to create music, but to write about music -- i.e., the musicians were themselves critics, and critics helped determine the direction of music -- and all were cultural workers, producers of culture
james chance -- said that best thing for music in the states right now would be "general societal collapse" and went on to note how nyc was teetering upon bankruptcy during the post-punk period, unpoliced steets downtown, rent so cheap that nobody actually had to work for a living -- talked about how he began playing in nyc at soho loft parties, which was a sorta hippie scene, w/ black jazz musicians from chicago and st loo, but an audience of white hippie-folk seated indian-style, which he knew was not his scene and so he next sought out cbgb's -- said that nyc at that time was seriously divided by racial tension -- you either did the black scene, or you did the white scene (and the loft scene was fucked up b/c black musicians w/ easy-going white hippy audience) -- also noted that when he first went to cbgb's nobody talked to him b/c if you weren't in a band, they didn't want to know you, but that this was a great motivating force for him, i.e., to simply show to others that he was worth talking to and getting to know
steven daly -- probably the most outspoken panelist -- took a hardline against the younger generation and said he felt insulted by the likes of green day and the strokes -- at same time, he was the voice of the uk provinces, i.e, where vivien goldman could get deep into reggae, people in glasgow could not -- also spoke a lot about "geographic destiny," i.e., about how the conditions in uk allowed for mass musical movements, such that you had all kinds of seemingly identical punk bands in uk, whereas conditions in usa (much more geographically dispersed) seem to foster bands with a more individualistic identity
MY CHIEF COMPLAINT -- choice of venue -- this was my first time at mo pitkins, and i was not impressed by the operation -- the organizers of the panel should have found a space that would have allowed the conversation to continue deep into the night -- instead, the show came to a quick end at 8 pm -- granted, people went downstairs to the bar area afterwards, but it wasn't the kind of scene i was hoping for
HOWEVER, i'm completely psyched for next saturday night, march 11th, at nublu = my usual hangout -- and i told dan selzer, who's never been there, that he should play whatever damn records he wants, b/c all he needs to make nublu rock is 10 people dancing -- and that, moreover, he can be confident that there'll be at least 10 people there ready to work with him -- my only concern is that the place will be so flooded by music critics that there'll be no room to dance (i.e., i'm flashing back on nublu 3rd anniversary week when the kudu/brazilian girls night was a total nightmare b/c absolutely no room to move)
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vivien goldman also made some remarks about going to "blues" parties, which she described as being precursors to raves -- all-night parties run by brits of carribean descent
i know woebot's interested in the whole "paths to rave" question, the prequel to "generation ecstasy," so to speak. one of the theses of generation ecstasy, repeated in riuasa, is that pop cultural events have their widest and most radical expression after urban hipster elites lose their exclusive ownership of them. accordingly, in generation ecstasy, the rave thing, at least in its london expression, is presented by reynolds as having been initiated by the balearic/boys own milieu, after which it then passes on to the acieed teds, and then the 91/92 ecstasy-guzzling essex massive, and so forth.
however, goldman's remarks suggest a more complicated dynamic, and certainly the origin of the word "rave" in the vocabulary of inner city "blues" parties suggests that raving was not simply brought to england from spain by the balearic crowd, but had roots stretching back to the jamaican soundsystem parties. perhaps the balearic crowd introduced ecstasy to the equation, but all-night dance parties where people "raved" and where blacks and whites broke down racial barriers had long been in existence, i.e., raves were "populist" from the beginning (or am i mistaken to treat "blues" parties as populist rather than hipster-ish)
tangentially connected to this line of thought = a remark by james chance in which he stated his disgust with the rise of clubs like the palladium and limelight in the mid-80s -- he said that "people ceased to care about music" in the mid 80s -- obviously i wasn't there at the time, but i've always had the impression that mid 80s were the golden age of the nyc club scene
and so i was left with the thought, again, of how in the uk the post punk people engaged more and more intensively w/ black music and dance music til they eventually switched gears and embarked on the rave program. by contrast, in the usa, post punk developed separately from black/dance music, with one or two exceptions. even someone like james chance, who borrowed heavily from james brown and worked with black musicians, was unprepared (the word "unprepared" is condescending and unwarranted on my part, sorry) to make the leap into dance music. but again, i make this remark having no real knowledge of what mid-80s club scene was like in nyc, other than the perhaps erroneous impression that these were the peak years of all-races, all-persuasions cultural miscegenation
i know woebot's interested in the whole "paths to rave" question, the prequel to "generation ecstasy," so to speak. one of the theses of generation ecstasy, repeated in riuasa, is that pop cultural events have their widest and most radical expression after urban hipster elites lose their exclusive ownership of them. accordingly, in generation ecstasy, the rave thing, at least in its london expression, is presented by reynolds as having been initiated by the balearic/boys own milieu, after which it then passes on to the acieed teds, and then the 91/92 ecstasy-guzzling essex massive, and so forth.
however, goldman's remarks suggest a more complicated dynamic, and certainly the origin of the word "rave" in the vocabulary of inner city "blues" parties suggests that raving was not simply brought to england from spain by the balearic crowd, but had roots stretching back to the jamaican soundsystem parties. perhaps the balearic crowd introduced ecstasy to the equation, but all-night dance parties where people "raved" and where blacks and whites broke down racial barriers had long been in existence, i.e., raves were "populist" from the beginning (or am i mistaken to treat "blues" parties as populist rather than hipster-ish)
tangentially connected to this line of thought = a remark by james chance in which he stated his disgust with the rise of clubs like the palladium and limelight in the mid-80s -- he said that "people ceased to care about music" in the mid 80s -- obviously i wasn't there at the time, but i've always had the impression that mid 80s were the golden age of the nyc club scene
and so i was left with the thought, again, of how in the uk the post punk people engaged more and more intensively w/ black music and dance music til they eventually switched gears and embarked on the rave program. by contrast, in the usa, post punk developed separately from black/dance music, with one or two exceptions. even someone like james chance, who borrowed heavily from james brown and worked with black musicians, was unprepared (the word "unprepared" is condescending and unwarranted on my part, sorry) to make the leap into dance music. but again, i make this remark having no real knowledge of what mid-80s club scene was like in nyc, other than the perhaps erroneous impression that these were the peak years of all-races, all-persuasions cultural miscegenation
Hey Dom,
Glad to hear you went to this and could report back ...
* I believe what you thought about 'mid '80's being a hot time for club music' is correct
regardless of what J Chance said , he had his own thing that went for a while and simply never crossed into what we now come to know as 'Dance music' or 'Club music' - although with titles like 'Contort yourself' you'd think it was 'dance music' of .. some .. sort ...
As for the mixing of the people and scenes , it WAS all that for awhile,
but if you will get different answers depending on who you ask -
J Chance , Lee Renaldo (in his liner notes for Branca rerelease on Selzer's Acute he gets into thr change of people and scenes)
China from Mars , myself and all others.
Many of the stricter guitar people downtown seemed caught out when electronic came in and so your use of 'unprepared' was not so far off , mon.
I got *hit from some of them and Lydia when i did "Dominatrix Sleeps Tonight" , it became a hit and Dominique and I used syndrums live, they bugged out .
A good deal of the 'everybody mixing' together phase happened at Danceteria and The Roxy ,
and we never saw James , Lydia , Glen , Lee , SY at those places
But in short , everyone who was there bk then , prolly has a little different story
James and his blackness' riffs still makes me laugh
Looking forward to the next one tho'
Glad to hear you went to this and could report back ...
* I believe what you thought about 'mid '80's being a hot time for club music' is correct
regardless of what J Chance said , he had his own thing that went for a while and simply never crossed into what we now come to know as 'Dance music' or 'Club music' - although with titles like 'Contort yourself' you'd think it was 'dance music' of .. some .. sort ...
As for the mixing of the people and scenes , it WAS all that for awhile,
but if you will get different answers depending on who you ask -
J Chance , Lee Renaldo (in his liner notes for Branca rerelease on Selzer's Acute he gets into thr change of people and scenes)
China from Mars , myself and all others.
Many of the stricter guitar people downtown seemed caught out when electronic came in and so your use of 'unprepared' was not so far off , mon.
I got *hit from some of them and Lydia when i did "Dominatrix Sleeps Tonight" , it became a hit and Dominique and I used syndrums live, they bugged out .
A good deal of the 'everybody mixing' together phase happened at Danceteria and The Roxy ,
and we never saw James , Lydia , Glen , Lee , SY at those places
But in short , everyone who was there bk then , prolly has a little different story
James and his blackness' riffs still makes me laugh
Looking forward to the next one tho'