N
nomadologist
Guest
tht, some of the couplets are good for a laugh.
Joanna Newsom --- "Ys"
- Thread starter Ivan Polygon
- Start date
timellison
Member
OK, I was remembering it wrong - the bear's name is Ursala. I think it's about Ursala being used, though!
N
nomadologist
Guest
it's just so opaque, it doesn't seem to matter to me what it's about. seems so self-indulgent, like a diary entry. reminds me of tori amos, but without the socially conscious bent.
nomad, I think that's not really fair. 'nuff times, she's really tried to shake off this image, and has a couple of times barked back during interviews at ham-handed attempts to describe her as renaissance fair-ish, etc. Sure, it's easy enough to find some brutal press photos, but I get the sense she's not clueless about such things. I need to pay more attention to the lyrics tho to really defend her (which is something I don't do enough in general).
Oh, and comparing her to Kate Bush is kind of an impossible standard
.
N
nomadologist
Guest
yeah, i almost never pay attention to lyrics unless they're so bad i can't stand them...vocals for me are just part of the sonic fabric of music, never been much of a "compositional" type listener
No, the most significant event behind the album was the sudden death of her best friend (a female, not that it matters). It also addresses her family, an ongoing illness suffered by someone close to her, and yes, a lost relationship.
to begin with, I doubt anyone can or should avoid being criticized in terms of gender politics. Who is outside gender? (nobody) and what's wrong with criticism on those terms, particularly when other common terms are whether someone is attractive or not (you think that's outside gender politics?), or "authentic" or not (ditto)?
The larger context existed before Newsom, and was already gendered. The fact is, representations of women that are most often supported and praised and become widespread to a great extent represent women as helpless. That means that presenting as helpless, if you are a woman, contributes to that spreading image.
The fact that that system of meanings is present in society was true before, and fucked-up before, but I've yet to see many people convincingly repeat that imagery of women tweaked enough to challenge its dominance. A man presenting as helpless clearly has a different significance.
I do see the dominance of images of men as powerful and women as weak to be an aspect of sexism, and something that supports sexism and is to the detriment of all humans, so I don't see contributing another string of images to that system as feminist.
night deposit
Member
i tried to trudge my way through this thread the other day and got tired.
i think there are a lot of people who dont like her music, her voice, or her whole 'package', some of these folks might change their minds or at least see her in a different light if they were able to see her perform.
i caught her a few years ago on a tour with devandra banhart, and was utterly transfixed by her performance, which in my perception, and i have seen hundreds upon hundred of shows, was an honest, passionate and heartfelt affair. she wasnt putting on any airs, didnt seem contrived in the least and really was appreciative and grateful for the attention she received.
while i dont really listen to her music all that much (i havent heard this new record), i do think she is a inspired songwriter who is definitely being true to her muse...
i think there are a lot of people who dont like her music, her voice, or her whole 'package', some of these folks might change their minds or at least see her in a different light if they were able to see her perform.
i caught her a few years ago on a tour with devandra banhart, and was utterly transfixed by her performance, which in my perception, and i have seen hundreds upon hundred of shows, was an honest, passionate and heartfelt affair. she wasnt putting on any airs, didnt seem contrived in the least and really was appreciative and grateful for the attention she received.
while i dont really listen to her music all that much (i havent heard this new record), i do think she is a inspired songwriter who is definitely being true to her muse...
timellison
Member
Honestly, "helplessness" strikes me, for the most part, as a red herring with regard to <i>Ys</i>, anyway. If someone wanted to make an argument about the specifics of Newsom's alleged helplessness and how it is indeed feeding into female stereotypes, I would be interested in seeing it.
Well someone said this:
"To me (and this is JUST MY OPINION), she comes across like a female artist loved by the predominantly male indie establishment for playing into all the condescending, limiting stereotypes men have of female artists--that they're self-indulgent, completely self-absorbed, out-of-touch with the big picture that is history, relegated entirely to domestic and loving it, hopelessly romantic, and above all, completely vulnerable and susceptible to male ("masculine") power. Like she's playing damsel in distress, but without songs like "Waking the Witch" to ensure she's a square peg that won't be pushed into the round hole. It's like she's making music for the "hearth" and wishes she could be saved by Prince Charming and wants to go back to sewing and being an earth goddess or whatever."
"To me (and this is JUST MY OPINION), she comes across like a female artist loved by the predominantly male indie establishment for playing into all the condescending, limiting stereotypes men have of female artists--that they're self-indulgent, completely self-absorbed, out-of-touch with the big picture that is history, relegated entirely to domestic and loving it, hopelessly romantic, and above all, completely vulnerable and susceptible to male ("masculine") power. Like she's playing damsel in distress, but without songs like "Waking the Witch" to ensure she's a square peg that won't be pushed into the round hole. It's like she's making music for the "hearth" and wishes she could be saved by Prince Charming and wants to go back to sewing and being an earth goddess or whatever."
timellison
Member
<i>Aerial</i> is a very "domestic" album, and indeed, if one wished to put a negative spin on it, an album for which it would be just as easy to claim "self-indulgence" and "self-absorption." I've argued previously that I don't find the vulnerability on <i>Ys</i> to be particularly gendered. I can understand how the stylistic connotations of the album might raise a <i>suspicion</i> about it playing into negative female stereotypes, but am still not sure how that relates to the actual text of the album.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Ohgod ohgod ohogod ohgod, one of my housemates was playing her iPod through some speakers earlier and this talentless slattern came on, I had to leave the room. Is it just me or does she sing like a nine-year-old with severe learning difficulties? It makes me think of a school talent show where this one backwards child's uber-supportive parents sit in the front row and immediately stand up and start clapping unnecessarily loudly as soon as the performance is over, fixed smiles beaming, and gradually the other parents begin to stand up and clap, uncertainly, out of embarrassment and confusion...
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think Gruesome Newsom represents the very worst tendencies of the 'affectedly unaffected' faux-naif singer-songwriter in much the same vein as our very own Kate 'Gash' Nash.
Thanks for listening.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think Gruesome Newsom represents the very worst tendencies of the 'affectedly unaffected' faux-naif singer-songwriter in much the same vein as our very own Kate 'Gash' Nash.
Thanks for listening.
sus
Moderator
a trillion leaves need fall yet