What do you think of this?

[martin]

http://secondlife.com

I'm actually quite appalled, there's something so sinister about this - the fact that people can re-invent themselves as online cartoon personas, and actually pay thousands of dollars (for real) for 'property' in this sordid, controlled fantasy world, while millions around the 'real world' can't even afford to live one life. I mean, it's so fucking barmy, I can't even get agitated or angry about it, I'm just 'what the...?'. Basically, you can't change your life, so you spend a load of cash on having a fake one online.

Myspace is one frequent target of criticism, and I'm not a big fan, but at least you don't get people 'living' on it....

Or am I just not down with the New Flesh?

 

[Lichen]

Anything that keeps these dreary malcontents in their homes and out of public places is alright by me.

 

[bassnation]

Anything that keeps these dreary malcontents in their homes and out of public places is alright by me.

hmm.

thing is, theres a lot of people who live their life online because they are disabled or agraphobic, whatever. why shouldn't people be able to escape and fantasize in any way they like?

even if that wasn't the case i still don't think its right to dismiss people like this - whatever gets them through the night.

 

[Lichen]

You're quite right. I'm guilty of callous flippancy.

Behind the flippancy lurks a conviction that computer games in general do a lot more harm than good, sapping peoples' (and especially children's) appetite for reality.

I suspect this wil be an unpopular POV on Dissensus.

 

[swears]

I think computer games and TV are bad for developing a healthy imagination.
If you never have to picture anything in your minds eye, because it's all presented to you, then that aspect of thought is diminished.

 

[DJ PIMP]

Yeah, it is fucked. But it also gives rise to this kind of scenario:

Grey Goo melting online world Second Life
A "griefer" -- person who disrupts video-games -- is attacking the online world Second Life with self-replicating "grey goo" that is melting down the Second Life servers. "Grey goo" is shorthand for an apocalyptic nano-gone-wrong scenario wherein nanoassemblers replicate so profligately that they reduce the world to slurry.
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/09/grey_goo_melting_onl.html

...or theres one guy who pulled off an epic Ponzi scam in EVE Online, which raises interesting issues of fraud/tax.
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/26703

 

[bassnation]

I think computer games and TV are bad for developing a healthy imagination.
If you never have to picture anything in your minds eye, because it's all presented to you, then that aspect of thought is diminished.

i think it can work like that - especially the younger the children. people don't say this about cinema though, so what do you see as being the key difference there? if that was the criteria for "things that stimulate imagination" we'd be chucking almost all visual arts out of the window.

i can only speak for me personally but computer games have been a big artform in my life and one that i've found to be a big inspiration. for a start, i never would have become a computer programmer if it hadn't been for games.

a lot of people dismiss programming as creativity, especially as its engineering based - but to me this is a very narrow view of what art and design is.

when i was a kid I used to spend ages writing games, designing the graphics and covers etc. it opened my mind to many possibilities and i'm sure it did the same for an entire generation.

its a bit daily mail to follow the line about them automatically being bad. its a fledgling artform that is subject to much snobbery (not that i am accussing anyone here of that). it has great potential which i think will be realised this century with it becoming the dominant artform just as cinema was before it.

 

[john eden]

i think it can work like that - especially the younger the children. people don't say this about cinema though, so what do you see as being the key difference there? if that was the criteria for "things that stimulate imagination" we'd be chucking almost all visual arts out of the window.

It's about usage and context, I think. Going to the cinema is an event, which I would guess for most is monthly or maybe weekly.

But some kids I know use playstation for hours and hours every day and get quite zombified by it - in some cases quite violent when they are told to turn it off and do something else.

For my part I regret the amount of time I spent arsing around with games on a ZX Spectrum in my early teens. Yeah it did make me computer literate, but I think it was a bit of a retreat from engaging with the world, really.

 

[droid]

For my part I regret the amount of time I spent arsing around with games on a ZX Spectrum in my early teens. Yeah it did make me computer literate, but I think it was a bit of a retreat from engaging with the world, really.

Wash your mouth out with soap you blasphemer!

 

[Lichen]

'when i was a kid I used to spend ages writing games, designing the graphics and covers etc. it opened my mind to many possibilities and i'm sure it did the same for an entire generation'


that's admirable (I say so without side) but for the average kid gaming does no such thing

i think skunk and games are an especially iniquitous combination. i just hope my boy spends his time getting laid and drinking beer not frying in front of a tv with a bunch of listless goofballs (who I happen to call my friends) like i did.

 

[bassnation]

It's about usage and context, I think. Going to the cinema is an event, which I would guess for most is monthly or maybe weekly.

But some kids I know use playstation for hours and hours every day and get quite zombified by it - in some cases quite violent when they are told to turn it off and do something else.

For my part I regret the amount of time I spent arsing around with games on a ZX Spectrum in my early teens. Yeah it did make me computer literate, but I think it was a bit of a retreat from engaging with the world, really.

i agree about usage and context - even though it was a formative experience for me, our generaton were older when computer games came about. At a guess I'd say I was 11 or 12 when I had my first computer in 1982.

its something i note with my own kids (who are of course, much younger than that). we have very strict rules about when they can play them - usually for an hour on a saturday morning and never through the week. i also note that they then base elaborate (and non-computer) games around what they've been playing on the console. it can stimulate creativity, just as me listening to some great music inspires me to try out new ideas.

and as for retreating from the real world - as a teenager i was horrifically shy and introverted. i tend to think the computer games were a symtom of that rather than the cause. it helped me through a very difficult hormonal phase and of course us geeks made our own society, with many afternoons spent round my mates house copying speccie games (when maybe i should have been out sniffing glue, vandalising bus shelters and having illicit sex, like most of my contemporaries were).

also its quite amusing to see people slag off secondlife while clearly spending much of their time on an online board complete with basic avatars themselves. its not such a big difference.

 

[IdleRich]

I think that Bassnation is right, it's a completely knee-jerk and basically snobbish reaction to completely dismiss computer games (or any medium) as bad for the imagination like that. For some people it will stimulate, for others it will be neutral, for those who sit in front of them all day it may be stultifying. Yes, going to the cinema is often an event but not watching tv, loads of people spend all day in front of the idiot-box but I don't hear anyone completely dismissing tv as a worthless medium (even me and I haven't got a tv or a computer).

"...or theres one guy who pulled off an epic Ponzi scam in EVE Online, which raises interesting issues of fraud/tax.
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/node/26703"

That's really interesting. Now why didn't I think of that?

 

[bassnation]

'when i was a kid I used to spend ages writing games, designing the graphics and covers etc. it opened my mind to many possibilities and i'm sure it did the same for an entire generation'


that's admirable (I say so without side) but for the average kid gaming does no such thing

i think skunk and games are an especially iniquitous combination. i just hope my boy spends his time getting laid and drinking beer not frying in front of a tv with a bunch of listless goofballs (who I happen to call my friends) like i did.

LOL

yeah, good job skunk didn't really exist when i was a kid.

this may be a generational thing, but the majority of the programmers i have worked with over the years in my age range have a background in hobbyist games programming.

anyone planning to go to this - perfect to check out antique games machines and the birth of a new artform:
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/exhibitions/gameon/

 

[john eden]

and as for retreating from the real world - as a teenager i was horrifically shy and introverted. i tend to think the computer games were a symtom of that rather than the cause. it helped me through a very difficult hormonal phase and of course us geeks made our own society, with many afternoons spent round my mates house copying speccie games (when maybe i should have been out sniffing glue, vandalising bus shelters and having illicit sex, like most of my contemporaries were).

some good points about,use, age and parenting.

on the shyness thing you are of course right but I think I am comparing my gaming with my interest in music and other areas. At the time I also spent a lot time in my room listening to music. This lead to a whole wealth of social interactions though, which were arguably a product of the time...

The music of course lead to going to gigs, but also reading zines and writing to quite a large number of people who were fans, zine writers, in bands, etc. And meeting some of them...

In the 80s there was a social element to gaming for some, as bassnation has pointed out, copying, trading, swapping hints, etc. But for me this was pretty basic stuff and definitely secondary to sitting on my own in front of a screen. It's entirely possible that gaming and other stuff can be more social these days with online stuff etc. I dunno.

My objections about gaming and imagination probably boil down to my own experiences, and to my perceptions of "misuse" these days. I don't think that is knee-jerk.

My music/zine nerdery helped me to overcome being a nerd, whereas my computer game nerdery reinforced it - if other people have had different experiences, or things are different now, then fair enough!

 

[IdleRich]

"I don't think that is knee-jerk."

I was talking more about this post

"I think computer games and TV are bad for developing a healthy imagination.
If you never have to picture anything in your minds eye, because it's all presented to you, then that aspect of thought is diminished"

but perhaps knee-jerk isn't the right phrase. I guess I just mean overly simplistic

Anyway, have you read that stuff about the Ponzi scheme business? I think it's fascinating, I've googled it and found out all kinds of stuff. Basically the guy set up a bank for people's game-dollars and then pulled the plug stealing all of their hard earned (game) money. Thing is people actually buy these game-dollars on ebay for real money and he got away with (on current ebay prices) over $100,000. When people started cottoning on he got a friend to post this little gem:

Last week Kieron, or Cally as he was known to the Eve world died of a cardiac arrest caused by a horrific ***** ******* overdose, as a well respected 25 year old business man both in Eve and the north east of England, leaving behind a fiancT ; Kieron will be missed by all.
A shame I could not post this earlier, but I was struck with grief when this aweful incident happened. Such grief cannot be emphasised in words.
His funeral is next week, at the Acklam Cemetery, Middlesbrough.
Having known Kieron for a long time, I believe it is fair to say rest in peace.

All over the internet people are going mad for this. I read one site where some guy was doing a raffle (for game-dollars of course) for items related to the scammer. Someone replied to say that he was "like one of those people who profited from September the 11th".
What the fuck is going on?

 

[turtles]

Couple of things...

i think skunk and games are an especially iniquitous combination. i just hope my boy spends his time getting laid and drinking beer not frying in front of a tv with a bunch of listless goofballs (who I happen to call my friends) like i did.

Interestingly, it's not just the game players who are into skunk. I know a lot of game programmers (and not just testers) who do most of their work stoned; one fairly large gaming house in particular here in Vancouver is stoner-friendly from the CEO down (though not EA)...


As for the +/- of video games, I think an argument could be made that they are at least better than tv in a lot of ways because at the bare minimum they still require the active participation of the viewer. Pretty much all video games require quick decision making and coordinated, complex responses, while the better ones also encourage a fair amount of creative, divergent thinking as well as planning and strategizing (yeah, I'm taking a rather glass-half-full perspective here). Unfortunately it remains unclear whether these skills transfer all that well into the real world--choices within a computer game are still bounded by technological limitations, while the real world is not. But nonetheless, at least it makes people THINK and DO things, rather than just sitting and staring. Good, challenging tv programs exempted from this criticism here, of course...

also its quite amusing to see people slag off secondlife while clearly spending much of their time on an online board complete with basic avatars themselves. its not such a big difference.

Also, agree with this 100%. It always amuses me when people start complaining about technology on an internet discussion board

 

[bruno]

for those contemplating running to the hills i think it's simple, if you have a computer or console at home and have children and want to avoid brain damage go and look for games that are interesting, challenging, beautiful, etc, such as klonoa, and avoid the brutish ones. there are also hypnotic games that are worth your time such as tetris, which is a bit like washing the dishes in that your mind goes into free association mode, which can't be a bad thing.

with television just the obvious, limit the amount of time you or your child spends in front of it, find stuff worth watching and perhaps do a round of watching and commenting together. television tends to have that immersive, hypnotic quality, or dulling quality as swears would have it, the important thing is to generate distance. you can also reduce this effect by looking at the screen from a pronounced angle, not sure if this applies to all tvs but it works (or if it applies to people as well, might be worth trying!).

having said all that it's also nice to blot out thinking for a while.

oh and that online money thing is obscene. they deserved to be scammed!

 

[droid]

If you have kids and are worried about what games they play - buy Nintendo, simple as that. Beautiful, challenging and non-violent software is their speciality.

 

[tryptych]

You heard about the online child prostitute scandal a year or so back, right?

I think it was in the Sims, rather than Second Life, but as I understand it the games are quite similar in principal. Anyway, apparently there was a flourishing market in cybersex within the game, so much so that some individuals set themselves up with brothels and made substantial real-world cash by supplying services. Then it turned out that one of the most prolific prostitutes/brothel owners was in fact a 13 or 14 year old operating out of their parents bedroom...

the mind fucking boggles...

 

[swears]

i think it can work like that - especially the younger the children. people don't say this about cinema though, so what do you see as being the key difference there? if that was the criteria for "things that stimulate imagination" we'd be chucking almost all visual arts out of the window.

Your experience doesn't really sound typical, since you were making games yourself.
I'm really against the whole multi media spectacle kids are exposed to, it's entertainment as dictated from above. At least in the 80s you had these bedroom programmers like Jeff Minter and Matthew Smith having massive hits, it was quite punk. Now only the lowest common denominator games get made because you have to make a profit with these huge R&D teams. You get the feeling that people think they can only be spectators rather than participants in popular culture. Unless of course they become very conformist X-factor type pop singers or form a generic indie band.