Virginia Gun Massacre

IdleRich

IdleRich
The attempts to blame Old Boy have been particularly weak and half-hearted, it's as if they know it's bollocks as they write it. I read one description of the film as featuring a "seemingly normal business man who suddenly goes on a violent rampage" which neglected to mention that this "rampage" was triggered by his being kidnapped and imprisoned for fifteen years without explanation, as far as I know this never happened to Cho Seung-hui.
There was also a picture of him "mimicking a pose" from Old Boy, in other words he was holding a hammer. The immediate difference for me was that in the picture of Cho he had it in two hands whereas the guy from Old Boy held it in one, if he was mimicking that pose surely he would have got something as simple as that right?

BTW, a very compelling film version (the first such film to examine the phenomenon) of the Whitman story was Peter Bogdanovich's Targets
Very good film, doesn't really offer any attempts at answers though, stuff just happens. I guess that the number of scenes of him buying bullets with such ease could be construed as against the US gun culture but it doesn't offer of attempt any simple explanations.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
These killings were more about the killer's personal relationship, or non-relationship, with his (it's always a he isn't it?) immediate community, which failed to provide a place for him.

Or, alternatively, he failed to make a place for himself in his immediate community.

I would guess that this guy had probably been an outsider since childhood (after all, how many normal, socially well-adjusted kids suddenly become sinister weirdos when they turn 18?) and that there was 'something about him' that put off other people forming close bonds to him, and that this in turn made him more isolated and withdrawn, and consequently even less likely to make friends/girlfriends, and so on.
 

turtles

in the sea
Thanks everyone for posting the things that I was too lazy to google and/or realize was already posted upthread :D That full metal jacket scene was definitely what I was thinking of.

But yeah, as IdleRich demonstrated with that article (which is slightly...disturbing) that there are a lot of different ways to go off the hinge, but somehow these "rage killers" fall into a somewhat new and distinct category. Still not really sure how this new avenue of psychosis was created, as opposed to the more "traditional" coping means of just committing suicide. A combination of a whole bunch of things...maybe our society is just easier to hate then ever before?

Also, about whether Cho was just a victim of lack of proper care/noticing the warning signs, I think that argument only works if you can show that kind of thing has decreased in the last 30 years. I think these kinds of events are a product of an increase in psychosis in western culture, not a decrease in treatment. Though some interesting arguments could be made about over-medication and over-diagnosis (every energetic kid has ADHD) being part of a decrease in real and effective treatment...
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
Still not really sure how this new avenue of psychosis was created, as opposed to the more "traditional" coping means of just committing suicide. A combination of a whole bunch of things...maybe our society is just easier to hate then ever before?

I'd also guess it's partially a result of media saturation. Rage killers - none more so than this guy - tend to be acutely aware of the public impact their actions will have.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Ahaha - "It's the murderer's fault" - really going out on a limb with these whacko ideas, aren't we?
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
Baudrillard would have been jizzing in his pants over a chap who halts mid-killing spree to finish off the press pack for the self-same event...!
 
On Targets

Very good film, doesn't really offer any attempts at answers though, stuff just happens. I guess that the number of scenes of him buying bullets with such ease could be construed as against the US gun culture but it doesn't offer of attempt any simple explanations.

[Okay, an extended response]

You mean it doesn't offer a CSI-style forensic "explanation"? You're right. Of course not, as such explanations would be mere lumpen-empirical deflections and displacements from the wider cultural context. Bogdanovich [or rather, nouvelle vague hero Samuel Fuller and the sublime Orson Welles (see other thread :D ), the real powerhouses behind the film's extraordinary script, making it Bogdanovich's best movie, rare for a debut film] sets out to avoid such pat explanations, instead adopting the uneasy, uncanny perspective of the dispassionate gaze, as impersonal as a surveillance camera. As Marsha Tupitsyn recently observed, "The most discernable difference between Taxi Driver and Targets is that Bickle is a claustrophobic meditation on male isolationism and violence, while Targets, a much more inclusive film, is about endless links and parallels. It is indebted to and aware of the cultural framework of its cinematic narrative and the ways in which medial narratives forge new terrors. The terror that Bobby Thompson ensues is only one of many. In other words, it’s nothing personal, or messianic, as in the case of Taxi Driver, and instead has everything to do with collective repression, the industry of exploitation, and the historical commission and representation of violence." This is why Bogdanovich avoided characterising the sniper-killer in psychological terms. He could have easily done so: Whitman's autopsy revealed that he had a brain tumor; he was also addicted to prescribed psychotropic drugs such as Valium, and had been discharged from the Marine Corp. But these "details" would have detracted from the wider aims of the narrative: Bogdanovich (or rather Fuller/Welles) chose to leave his character Bobby Thompson existential and elliptical in terms of motive, thereby making him more sinister and symptomatic of the "new" kind of horror. As Lawrence Russell elaborates, "In one way his actions can be seen as a protest against the incomprehensible rat-race of contemporary living, symbolized by the automobile on the freeway and in the Drive-In. His frustration seems driven in part by the fact that he has no job, is drifting... although there is no sense that this is an issue with his family. We get the impression that he's a child-man, and is regarded as such ... but the disease that Bobby carries is societal and historical. "

a.jpg


Indeed, the film is one of the very first examples [apart from Wilder's Sunset Boulevard] of the postmodern condition, the real clue to this contemporary horror. It's singular deneument foreshadowed works by Lynch, Cronenberg, Kubrick [indeed, the film self-reflexively replaces the traditional-filmic Gothic romanticism and expressionism of darkness and shadow with the breezy 60's California documentary-naturalistic pastels of Pathe color, as Kubrick later did in The Shining] and others, in its portrayal of the collapsing down of the imaginary and the real. In Targets two horrors are colliding and overlapping, but more importantly, cinematic violence and real violence are expressed collaboratively. For this reason, the film is ahead of its time. In the end, when killer Bobby gets trapped between the screen Orlok-Karloff and the real Karloff-Orlok - who has revived his status as monster in order to confront his competition, like Godzilla in a match against King Kong - Bobby doesn’t know which one to fear, or resist, they're indistinguishable, the screen Karloff as hyper-real as the actual Karloff - so he shoots at both of them. As Karloff-Orlok marches at him from both sides, the effect is very powerful, for the film is an early evocation that there is little difference between the screen and the real, and in the psychic economy, very little space from it.

targets3.jpg



Tupitsyn concludes: "The film is a reflection on many things: the history of horror, the status of genre, but most boldly, it addresses the construct of monstrosity itself. What makes a monster a monster? How does something become monstrous? And, finally, in what ways is the culture invested in the maintenance of monstrosity, and by extension, perfection? In other words, the changing status of what society sees, or is willing to see, as horrific. Horror both follows and disrupts social conventions - as in the case of Dracula, a filter for the clichés and sexual anxieties of Victorian society. Or, a hundred years later, with the 1980s backlash against the feminist movement erupting in the Slasher genre’s revival of phallic supremacy. Not that it ever really went away. Equally, as Robin Wood points out in his famous definition [of horror: "“One might say that the true subject of the horror genre is the struggle for recognition of all that our civilization represses or oppresses"] , horror also ceases to follow conventions, thereby magnifying the unconscious power of horror even more. "
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"You mean it doesn't offer a CSI-style forensic "explanation"? You're right. Of course not"
Sorry, should have made it clear that when I said "It doesn't offer any explanations" that certainly wasn't intended as a criticism (in the negative sense) of the film. I was just saying that it wouldn't necessarily provide much or any insight in to the Virgina Tech shooting. What you're saying about removing the brain tumour from the character illustrates this because it's unimportant for the film - and would indeed make it less interesting - but for understanding the actual killer the brain tumour may well be significant.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
directly copied from an Instant Messenger conversation i just had:

my friend:

talking about the korean dude
my friend said people used to make fun of that korean dude really badly
that's why he is so mad
and noone can mention about that on the news
cuz it's racism
people used to lock him in the bathroom
and he couldn't get out until a janitor had to let him out at the end of the day
and booo when he went in front of the class
and now they are too scared to be blamed so they said they never knew him
and that he was a loner
but the truth is he was not like that....he was actaully a really good student
but now everyone just don't wanna accept that they actaully did bad things to him
my friend said this is what happened and he is amazed that people now act like they didn't know Cho

me:
your friend went to that college?
where did this information come from?

my friend:

this thai person went to that college
and he sent out email to my thai friend
(note: my friend is thai)

me:
oh wow

my friend:
i personally think this is true
cuz the same thing happened to me in my high school back home
this kid jumped off the roof because the teacher was giving him hardtime
the news didn't even mention about that because it's wrong to say things like that after someone already committed suicide
they said he was a loner and stuff too
but we all knew that the techer was the cause of that
she had to quit after that happened
 

swears

preppy-kei
directly copied from an Instant Messenger conversation i just had:

my friend:

talking about the korean dude
my friend said people used to make fun of that korean dude really badly
that's why he is so mad...


Yeah, this would seem to make sense. In the video he sent to CBS he talks at length about how his life was made a living hell, how he was mentally tortured, etc.
Then in the interviews with other students after the killings, they all claim nobody spoke to him, and he didn't speak anyone else, as if there was no communication at all.
And I thought that was very fishy, nobody would be that mad if they hadn't been provoked in the first place. Of course this doesn't justify what he did, nobody deserves to die for taking the piss out of someone, but the total whitewashing of any wrong-doing at all by other students (some of whom may have been racist) is disturbing.
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Distasteful as it may be, the writing that affected me the most in recent weeks was this piece on commuters in New York City and Atlanta. Most of the interviewees were high-earning, quite successful average Joes and Jolenes, but my golly did their lives seem miserable. I am not suggesting that these people in any way are related to the «going postal» syndrome, but if this kind of lifestyle is common, I’m not the least surprised that a few confused souls snap now and then:

A year ago, Stephen Kocis, a Pittsburgh native who has lived in (or, at least, near) Atlanta for twenty years, got a new job, as a design manager at Silgan Plastics, developing containers for shampoo, mouthwash, and powdered drinks. His office is on the outskirts northeast of the city, and his home is well to the south, in Peachtree City (population 35,000)—a planned community of well-heeled developments connected by golf-cart paths. The commute is fifty-two miles. Though Kocis is normally a fitness freak, with a black belt in karate, in the past year he’d put on twenty pounds and developed nerve problems in his back. For a while, he tried leaving at five, to get to the office at six-thirty, in time to work out, but it exhausted him. So he gave up exercise.

“I don’t have a social life,” he told me. He and his wife, Martha, get a babysitter once a month or so and go out for dinner in Peachtree City; they hardly ever go into Atlanta. Generally, he comes home, helps his two sons with their homework, puts them to bed, works a little bit, then watches “Grey’s Anatomy” or “Desperate Housewives” on TV. “My wife enjoys it, but, God, I hope she doesn’t relate to it,” he said.
 

old goriot

Well-known member
Yeah, this would seem to make sense. In the video he sent to CBS he talks at length about how his life was made a living hell, how he was mentally tortured, etc.
Then in the interviews with other students after the killings, they all claim nobody spoke to him, and he didn't speak anyone else, as if there was no communication at all.
And I thought that was very fishy, nobody would be that mad if they hadn't been provoked in the first place. Of course this doesn't justify what he did, nobody deserves to die for taking the piss out of someone, but the total whitewashing of any wrong-doing at all by other students (some of whom may have been racist) is disturbing.

There have been some other interviews with people from his high school released. According to one of his fellow students at one point after each student gave a presentation, and when it was Cho's turn he refused to talk. Then the teacher said he had to or else he would fail. When he started talking his voice was weird and low. The other students immediately started jeering him and shouting "go back to China" while he was trying to give the presentation.
 

petergunn

plywood violin
Yeah, this would seem to make sense. In the video he sent to CBS he talks at length about how his life was made a living hell, how he was mentally tortured, etc.
Then in the interviews with other students after the killings, they all claim nobody spoke to him, and he didn't speak anyone else, as if there was no communication at all.
And I thought that was very fishy, nobody would be that mad if they hadn't been provoked in the first place. Of course this doesn't justify what he did, nobody deserves to die for taking the piss out of someone, but the total whitewashing of any wrong-doing at all by other students (some of whom may have been racist) is disturbing.

come off it.

i am not excusing teasing/hazing by any means...

but to say "nobody would be that mad if they hadn't been provoked in the first place." is wrong.

some of these people are just nuts. google the Texas Luby's shooting of 1991. that guy had a history of being a big fucking creep and he killed like 29 people. as far as i know, there are no stories of him being some bullied outcaste.

yeah, alot of spree killers/serial killers have the charles manson/henry lee lucas 'I HAD TO WEAR A DRESS TO SCHOOL AND MY MOM WAS A HOOKER AND I ATE OUT OF TRASH CANS" excuse, but many don't...

but, honestly, kids (and teenagers) are cruel fucks and ALOT of people get teased, to the point that it's no excuse (being forced to wear a dress to school and having a prostitute for mother, etc etc etc is much more understandable as a force to drive man to murder, no?)

i remember when columbine happened the reaction within the punk rock circles i was hanging in was mixed. one kid said it best tho: "i was reading that those kids had like a group of friends, their "trench coat mafia' or whatever. and also they were friends with each other. fuck them. they had friends. how bad was it? i didn't have a single friend in high school and i'd never do anything that fucked up."

oh and for the sake of argument, the kid saying this was an Asian skinhead, funnily enuff...
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Here is some info to back up the video-games-aren’t-always-harmless argument. For a discussion of the studies’ various flaws, see the full article.

Why Video Games Really Are Linked to Violence

Pathological acts of course have multiple, complex causes and are terribly hard to predict. And clearly, millions of people play Counter-Strike, Halo, and Doom and never commit crimes. But the subtler question is whether exposure to video-game violence is one risk factor for increased aggression: Is it associated with shifts in attitudes or responses that may predispose kids to act out? A large body of evidence suggests that this may be so. The studies have their shortcomings, but taken as a whole, they demonstrate that video games have a potent impact on behavior and learning.

[...]

Three kinds of research link violent video games to increased aggression. First, there are studies that look for correlations between exposure to these games and real-world aggression. This work suggests that kids who are more immersed in violent video games may be more likely to get into physical fights, argue with teachers, or display anger and hostility. Second, there is longitudinal research (measuring behavior over time) that assesses gaming habits and belligerence in a group of children. One example: A study of 430 third-, fourth-, and fifth-graders, published this year by psychologists Craig Anderson, Douglas Gentile, and Katherine Buckley, found that the kids who played more violent video games "changed over the school year to become more verbally aggressive, more physically aggressive," and less helpful to others.

Finally, experimental studies randomly assign subjects to play a violent or a nonviolent game, and then compare their levels of aggression. In work published in 2000, Anderson and Karen Dill randomly assigned 210 undergraduates to play Wolfenstein 3-D, a first-person-shooter game, or Myst, an adventure game in which players explore mazes and puzzles. Anderson and Dill found that when the students went on to play a second game, the Wolfenstein 3-D players were more likely to behave aggressively toward losing opponents. Given the chance to punish with blasts of noise, they chose to inflict significantly louder and longer blasts than the Myst kids did. Other recent work randomly assigned students to play violent or nonviolent games, and then analyzed differences in brain activation patterns using fMRI scans, but the research is so far difficult to assess.
 
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