Modern d'n'b is rubbish - tune ID and a moan from an old man

bassnation

the abyss
bassnation, see in your blogariddims mix, the jungle/d n b at the end, what sort of era is that from? I quite liked that stuff. I know nothing about d n b really, apart from a few very precusory investigations into early jungle. However, I do know that all d n b clubs i've been in have done my nut in, and that I HATE pendulum.

that section on the mix starts with a tune from 1994, followed by some foul play, iirc from 1993 and then ends with breakage "prophecy" funnily enough - so a mixture of old and new.

i think everyone in the world must have heard these by now - but if you liked that, heres some links to the most well known mixes i've done:
http://www.deadtrax.com/sound/oldskool12-2001.mp3
http://www.deadtrax.com/sound/oldskool10-2001.mp3

i am doing a new blogariddims old skool mix very soon.

btw, evergreen: will reply to your links soon sorry mate.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
I've been into jungle/dnb in a major way since it kicked off and must disagree with the doom and gloom merchants in this thread.

People are forgetting that when they heard jungle first, it was in a different context - it was a novel style and they were younger, with more energy to expend.

Like ppl on this thread, I don't get quite as excited by newer dnb, but I'm sure that that's my fault, not the genre's - it would be hard to believe that a genre that has retained its characteristic elements doesn't now have the same effect on many that it once did on me.

Surely we need to hear from people like the 16-18 year old junglists who run my local dnb night and have come to the music fresh (rather than jaded waffleheaded eclecticists bent on a drumfunk nostalgia trip) before consigning the genre to the scrapheap?

Just face facts: we're past it. ;)
 

mixed_biscuits

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I'm sure I could start a load of sentences off with "I could say... but I won't", but it's a bit wanky isn't it? :)

That's a rhetorical figure called anti-occupatio, as far as I remember.

Now, I could say that my French tutor at Oxford would use it when slagging off other tutors' translations, but that would be a bit wanky, wouldn't it. HARGH HARGH HARGH :rolleyes:

Obv the bestest rhetorical figure is boustrephodon.
 

Don Rosco

Well-known member
it would be hard to believe that a genre that has retained its characteristic elements doesn't now have the same effect on many that it once did on me.

I admire your optimism, but the mainstream has clearly ditched Jungle's greatest characteristic elements - non-linearity and rhythmic invention. Most of it sounds like obnoxious pub rock or smug, big-room 90s house.
 

mixed_biscuits

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I admire your optimism, but the mainstream has clearly ditched Jungle's greatest characteristic elements - non-linearity and rhythmic invention.

I think rhythmic invention is still in evidence - the beatwork just isn't at the 'front' of most tunes anymore. There's still skill in editing other than chopping breaks: switching up different beats whilst keeping momentum and coherence (Technical Itch, Dylan); IDM-style edits (Ewun, Raiden); processing beats (Dom and Roland, Calyx); layering (Pendulum); using incidental elements as rhythmic elements (Twisted Individual); choice/creation of drum sounds (Teebee).

A lot of the 'movement' that used to come from break choppage has moved into ever-shifting (modulated or superseding) riffs and bassline manipulation (driven, just as break editing was, by producers exploiting new production tools). Bring back the old beats and the whole thing would be too busy.

Not to mention... *inspecting drum and bass selection 1*... that most 'mainstream' old jungle/dnb didn't attempt to reach, or attain the complexity of Remarc-style editing.

Of course, if you want non-linearity, chopped-to-fxxk breaks and genre-bending samples, there's always breakcore!
 

bassnation

the abyss
A lot of the 'movement' that used to come from break choppage has moved into ever-shifting (modulated or superseding) riffs and bassline manipulation (driven, just as break editing was, by producers exploiting new production tools). Bring back the old beats and the whole thing would be too busy.

riff and bassline manipulation is as close a definition to trance as you can get. although its true that beats weren't manipulated and chopped to a soundmurderer level with old skool (and even then that assertion doesn't hold water - what about people like hype and bizzy b?) at least the drum beats weren't totally funkless and linear.

people can like what they want, but that kind of stuff is not really jungle.
 

mms

sometimes
A lot of the 'movement' that used to come from break choppage has moved into ever-shifting (modulated or superseding) riffs and bassline manipulation (driven, just as break editing was, by producers exploiting new production tools). Bring back the old beats and the whole thing would be too busy.

thats simply because the music has got faster, to add more drama now the beats are more simplified, (because the break thing would be too busy) they've sped it up and manipulated the bass and riffs, it all points towards a kind of motortonic machined metal so pendulum or concorde dawn, that kinda clean arena riffage and speed is a logical conclusion.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Aah...'machine music'

Darkcore had moments of proper machine music - relentless, impersonal, unsettlingly odd - that haven't been surpassed IMHO:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/bear_necessities/ma04

http://www.discogs.com/release/75149

Techstep took the baton of impersonality but dropped the creative 'strangeness;' recent stuff like Resonant Evil is technically impressive but self-consciously 'dark' and formulaic (ie. too 'manmade').

Marry contemporary producer's attention to detail to the old skool's disorientation techniques and I would be a happy bunny. :D

Are there any current tunes fitting the bill?
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
recent stuff like Resonant Evil is technically fucking rubbish

I agree :)

They're doing dubstep now too :mad:

mixed biscuits said:
Marry contemporary producer's attention to detail to the old skool's disorientation techniques and I would be a happy bunny.

Are there any current tunes fitting the bill?

I reckon you'd like Sileni.. check out his release on subtle audio and his plate on subvert central vol. 2. Martsman would be a good bet too.
 

bassnation

the abyss
Aah...'machine music'

Darkcore had moments of proper machine music - relentless, impersonal, unsettlingly odd - that haven't been surpassed IMHO:

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/bear_necessities/ma04

http://www.discogs.com/release/75149

Techstep took the baton of impersonality but dropped the creative 'strangeness;' recent stuff like Resonant Evil is technically impressive but self-consciously 'dark' and formulaic (ie. too 'manmade').

Marry contemporary producer's attention to detail to the old skool's disorientation techniques and I would be a happy bunny. :D

Are there any current tunes fitting the bill?

obsessive attention to detail above all other considerations is why dnb is in such a mess.
 

mixed_biscuits

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obsessive attention to detail above all other considerations is why dnb is in such a mess.

Perhaps - old skool darkcore is eerier and more affecting because concurrent and succeeding elements are thrown together more loosely than they are now.

Well-tempered attention to detail can produce great music - presumably the greatest examples of break rearrangement involved a fair amount of concentration (tho' mebbe then it was almost exclusively aural attention rather than visual/aural as it is now with software sequencers - to the older music's benefit).
 

N A P H T A

Junglist
Re naphta etc: isn't it all mostly revivalist though, without the prevailing wind of a cultural junglist movement behind it? Recreating the music wont recreate the magic...

Good observation - that a bunch of tracks alone won't necessarily impact in any broader sense if the context is absent... I agree. I'm not under any illusions about that.

A few years back, I argued this issue out at length with the prevailing opinion on www.subvertcentral.com - and was essentially out-voted. I argued for a definitive split from 'drum n bass' (name change n all) - much like 'jungle' / 'drum n bass' split from 'happy hardcore' back in '94.

To my mind, now that the rock bottom lowest-common denominator had been reached in dnb proper, there was unlikely to ever be any significant turning back, and thus further attempts to regain a serious foothold in the scene were not looking promising...

A few years on, not much has changed IMO. Bassbin, Inperspective, Offshore and a few other labels get name-checked from time to time by the likes of Bailey, and Paradox/Seba & Amit's partial acceptance by the scene has allowed a little window of difference to survive. But ultimately, it seems unable to compete with the max'd-out trace-rock angst-anthems that rule the mainstream dnb floors, and unsurprisingly so, cos that's the sound that the new, young punters dig first: the biggest, loudest, crudest, most inyoface sound there is. And so that's the sound the career DJs play.

So slivers of quality persist in dnb on the margins, but in recent years I came to find that I had little in common with them on a musical level. Don't get me wrong - I have tremendous admiration for people like Paradox, Rohan, Macc, Amit, Fanu etc. etc. - who continue to insist that drum n bass can pack an oomph without trying desperately to emulate hard house or Linkin Park - but my breakbeat experiences date back to 92... and 93-95 was where my heart always really lay.

Hence I returned to production after a year's hiatus from the studio in 2003 with the intent of deliberately drawing upon that period (93-95) for inspiration - it seemed to me to represent the time that was not only the most musically inventive and energised in the history of drum n bass music, but also the period which had most potently connected with dancefloors in an emotional sense - even more than even the best of the Blue Note-inspired 'proper dnb' that came after. It ceartainly had for me...

re: 'dnb': beat-twisting 'science', or 'musical' progressions on their own leave me cold: I admire them from a distance but don't feel involved. Instead I prefer the melting-pot of the sample stew... So hence, what I call 'Jungle' these days offers not just an overall aesthetic (particularly in relation to the use of samples), but also an attitude (one which, incidentally, has fuck-all to do with pretending you're a rasta or a gangsta).

Jungle for me is about suss: treating the floor with some respect, pre-supposing that your audience has some musical sophistication... and chasing their imagination (instead of bludgeoning them) through the billion different possibilities offered by energised, up-front sample-manipulation... and in doing so, creating a raw collage of sub-bass and cut-up beats, with vibes that draw heavily from rave, reggae and hiphop. To that end, in my production, I stay away from any samples that I know have been used in the music before (bar breakbeats, which I consider the vocabulary of the music).... Jungle needs new DNA, new genes in the form of 'new' samples and I always try to offer that.

re: 'Jungle': I'm not interested in making the hardest or craziest Amen track ever... in fact, I'm interested in slowing the tempo down, and in finding the space that gave Hardcore Jungle its dynamic and imaginative power. Had Jungle evolved in its own right (instead of being cast aside in favour of 'dnb' in '95), I like to imagine that it would have come to incorporate tempo-changes in the dance as readily as on reggae dancefloors :) and I've allowed this little fantasy to influence my approach to making 'Jungle' in the last year or so... as I hope my album 'Long Time Burning' will make clear to anyone who listens. And no, I don't mean 'slow Jungle' or 'breaks' or some-such... :p

In short, at this stage, after DJing 'drum n bass' music for 13 years, and producing it for 7, I do my own thing. Whether others choose to get on board the Jungle train is up to them.

Peace

BTW, UFO's comments on this subject are all spot-on :D




http://www.virb.com/djnaphta
http://www.myspace.com/djnaphta
 

UFO over easy

online mahjong
Paradox comes across as a really, really awful human being in that set. Someone you'd cross the street to avoid, but you'd still be overwhelmed by the scent of self-satisfaction.

I recorded that mix if anyone's interested :) There's a link and some blurb here - http://dissensus.com/showthread.php?p=94542#post94542 A lot of thought and planning went into it so hopefully you guys will enjoy it. It's a cliché but the music says more than any number of posts could.
 
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mixed_biscuits

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Paradox comes across as a really, really awful human being in that set. Someone you'd cross the street to avoid, but you'd still be overwhelmed by the scent of self-satisfaction.

I spot him quite often in Colchester town centre, occasionally with his fit Lithuanian bird - I'll ask him to sign my Pendulum cd next time I see him. :D

The boss of the local dnb shop, Rapture Records, says he occasionally pops in - probably to buy up his own 12s, which can usually be found in the bargain bins (in fact, I normally hoover them up).
 
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