N
nomadologist
Guest
Oh no, that's ok. I'm a rather busy person, and it's no fun telling people who don't understand anyway.
kids these days
- Thread starter rockypoppy2
- Start date
Gavin
booty bass intellectual
You don't think there's any relationship to the violence a society experiences domestically and the violence they wreak elsewhere? Or have a stepped into the dreaded MORAL EQUIVALENCE ZONE, irrationally and dishonestly mixing my peas into my mashed potatoes when such things must NEVER BE COMPARED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Well Gavin it SEEMS to me that there have been unusually high number of teenagers killed in Britain this year, mostly in London and mostly by other teenagers, in gang-related incidents. More so than in previous years (which I can attest to, having actually lived in London the last eight years). No doubt all these murders have been made up by the press to scare people for some sinister purpose, of course.
If you actually READ my post (fat fucking chance of that, sadly) you'd have seen that I said violent crime is probably stable or even falling, but that serious gang-related youth violence is increasing. Since that graph you've posted simply shows undifferentiated 'violent crime' (everything from bank robberies to domestic violence), it in fact reinforces one part of what I've been saying, and gives no information at all about the other part. But don't let that put you off having a totally misguided but no doubt highly enjoyable dig at me.
If you actually READ my post (fat fucking chance of that, sadly) you'd have seen that I said violent crime is probably stable or even falling, but that serious gang-related youth violence is increasing. Since that graph you've posted simply shows undifferentiated 'violent crime' (everything from bank robberies to domestic violence), it in fact reinforces one part of what I've been saying, and gives no information at all about the other part. But don't let that put you off having a totally misguided but no doubt highly enjoyable dig at me.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Laws should exist to protect children from violence (and they do). Carefully considered, occasional (<10 per annum?) swats are not violent acts (reflected in parental opinion that stopped a slapping ban from going through here recently).
The odd, carefully considered swat that is not made in anger does not leave lasting physical harm and, if framed correctly, is far less confusing to children than other parental tactics - wheedling/intimidation etc.
Swatting within a well-organised and loving family setup is not harmful. Within a disorganised environment, it is usually symptomatic of a general lack of control. Frequency of swats tells you which is the case, I would say.
The odd, carefully considered swat that is not made in anger does not leave lasting physical harm and, if framed correctly, is far less confusing to children than other parental tactics - wheedling/intimidation etc.
Swatting within a well-organised and loving family setup is not harmful. Within a disorganised environment, it is usually symptomatic of a general lack of control. Frequency of swats tells you which is the case, I would say.
Last edited:
Gavin
booty bass intellectual
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/youth-crime/
So don't worry, you're in good (or at least massive) company.
I love the conversational tone your bureaucratic offices use in their official prose.
There do appear (seem) to be more gun crimes according to the Home Office -- and if there's a better source of UK Crime Data, please enlighten me, I love looking at crime statistics (you uncover interesting nuggets, like that UK laws on crossbows have been stiffened). Mum on connecting this to UK gun crime in Iraq though. Those guys were over 18.
This site claims that gun crime is going down: http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/aug2007/ukgun_crime.html
I can't seem (although my search has been cursory) any info on specifically violent youth crime. While no doubt youth ACTUALLY are committing violent crime, could this specter owe more to (racist) media spectacle than fact?
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
Last edited:
N
nomadologist
Guest
Do you think it's worth it to talk about the absolute shambles our child welfare laws are in over here? How impossible it is to get a pedophile/abuser to do jail time? How horrible the foster system is?
I'm thinking it's probably not.
Precisely.
bassnation
the abyss
the boy who stabbed my mates dad ten times last week was white, so don't really know what racism has to do with it. and it was reality, not some media-filtered perecption. i look at whats going on around me as a more reliable indicator than papers, or figures.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
You forget that Gavin is one of those who see it as 'racist' to run news coverage of (say) stabbings or shootings committed by black teenagers, on the grounds that it perpetuates negative stereotypes, or something. Presumably we should effect affirmative action by only reporting crimes committed by white people.
noel emits
a wonderful wooden reason
What would be fair is if kids go around with guns and knives then their parents should be allowed to stab or shoot them. Seems reasonable to me.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
My parents used to shoot me all the time, and it never did me any harm.
N
nomadologist
Guest
just asked a shrink...he said that while not all spanking qualifies as abuse, it is an infantile approach to child rearing that gives the "illusion" of control without requiring the parent to do the real hard work of careful discipline and training. he said it's a lot like a "short cut" that isn't really saving anyone any time in the long run.
i noted that primates do it all the time and he said that we should be holding ourselves to a higher moral standard as adult humans
and HEEELLLLLL nahh i do not want kids anytime soon
i noted that primates do it all the time and he said that we should be holding ourselves to a higher moral standard as adult humans
and HEEELLLLLL nahh i do not want kids anytime soon
hundredmillionlifetimes
Banned
I have kids, you see, so I know there are times that reasoning breaks down. Hopefully no one will now call me a child abuser
Don't kill me!
I occasionally give my kids a swat on the butt when they are a) being uncooperative, b) it is willful and c) other methods of negotiation have been exhausted. There is no permanent damage or even temporary damage other than shock---creating that is the point. It lets everyone reevaluate their position.
"You fiend. Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul minded perversity. Have you ever considered a career in the church? .... Bend over Blackadder!"---The Baby-Eating-Bishop of Barthenwells.
If your 'kid' was an 'unreasonable' 6-foot, 16-stone, burly rugby-playing buffoon with tree-trunks where his legs should be, would you be resorting to a 'swat on the butt'? And what happens when you are being willfully 'unreasonable', or are parents constitutively immune from such a temporary collapse of their mental faculties?
Send in Supernanny!
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I've been there, lovely place.
No, of course not, but they are generally far less susceptible to it than children, are they not?
I mean, that's why we tell someone to "grow up" when they're acting "childish", i.e. willfull, selfish, irrational, vindictive etc.
Smacking or spanking should always be the last resort - I'm sure no-one here is advocating otherwise - to be used after all attempts at verbal reasoning, compromise and of course adequate warning of an impending smack have failed. Which they do, sometimes.
hundredmillionlifetimes said:
Probably not, but neither would I if my `kid' was an unreasonable 5'2'' skinny buffoon either. Adults are trained to be able to handle each other without that.
If I am being wilfully unreasonable hopefully someone will shut me down, and hopefully it will not require physical means.
Just out of curiosity I wonder how many of the people who have this visceral disgust toward any way of interacting with children that involves non-mental coercion have children themselves. I would be interested to hear other suggestions.
vimothy
yurp
Down from last year, but look at the wider trend:
Analysis: UK gun crime figures
Acording to the Beeb, most gun crime occurs in London, Manchester and the Midlands.
However,
There are almost four times more knife-related killings as firearms-related killings, according to recent figures.
Of the 25 violent teenager deaths nationwide since the beginning of 2007, 17 have been stabbings. The most recent was the death of 17-year-old Mohammed Ahmed in Newham, east London, on 30 August.
The Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London recently conducted some deeper analysis of the available Home Office's statistics.
It concluded that between 22,000 and 57,900 young people could have been victims of knife crime in 2004. However, it says without better official data it is impossible to know for sure - and that we need that data to improve the public debate.
Of the 25 violent teenager deaths nationwide since the beginning of 2007, 17 have been stabbings. The most recent was the death of 17-year-old Mohammed Ahmed in Newham, east London, on 30 August.
The Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College London recently conducted some deeper analysis of the available Home Office's statistics.
It concluded that between 22,000 and 57,900 young people could have been victims of knife crime in 2004. However, it says without better official data it is impossible to know for sure - and that we need that data to improve the public debate.
And,
So what about perpetrators of crime? We don't have a figure for the total number of violent youth offenders because of the way data is collected. But we do know a little about where violence figures in youth crime overall.
Almost a fifth of all crimes committed by under-18s are violent offences, second only to theft - and the number of violent crimes has risen consecutively for four years.
The vast majority are minor assaults - frightening for the victim but usually dealt with by warnings from the police.
Of last year's crimes, 39,000 offences were committed by young men and 15,000 by young women. The number of offenders will be lower because one person is very often found to have assaulted more than one victim.
Only 1,500 resulted in some form of detention - nine involved a life detention order
Almost a fifth of all crimes committed by under-18s are violent offences, second only to theft - and the number of violent crimes has risen consecutively for four years.
The vast majority are minor assaults - frightening for the victim but usually dealt with by warnings from the police.
Of last year's crimes, 39,000 offences were committed by young men and 15,000 by young women. The number of offenders will be lower because one person is very often found to have assaulted more than one victim.
Only 1,500 resulted in some form of detention - nine involved a life detention order
Naturally, yes -- anything else would be unthinkable.
vimothy
yurp
Also,
MORE than 1,900 children were mugged in the North West last year, figures have revealed.
Data compiled by the Conservatives showed 1,909 youngsters aged 11 to 16 were robbed in the region during 2005/06, according to police figures from England and Wales.
Because official Government data suggests only a fifth of robberies are reported to police, the true number of robberies on secondary school pupils could be as high as 9,091 a year, the Tories suggested.
Tories compiled the previously unpublished information from requests under the Freedom of Information Act.
The figures also revealed that 1,887 17 to 22 year olds were robbed during the same period.
Children under 17 accounted for 23% of all robberies, with 17-22 year olds making up another 24%. The 23-29 year old age group represented 13% of all victims, while people over 30 made up the final 37%.
Data compiled by the Conservatives showed 1,909 youngsters aged 11 to 16 were robbed in the region during 2005/06, according to police figures from England and Wales.
Because official Government data suggests only a fifth of robberies are reported to police, the true number of robberies on secondary school pupils could be as high as 9,091 a year, the Tories suggested.
Tories compiled the previously unpublished information from requests under the Freedom of Information Act.
The figures also revealed that 1,887 17 to 22 year olds were robbed during the same period.
Children under 17 accounted for 23% of all robberies, with 17-22 year olds making up another 24%. The 23-29 year old age group represented 13% of all victims, while people over 30 made up the final 37%.
N
nomadologist
Guest
And, of course, this is because parents haven't been spanking hard or often enough.
vimothy
yurp
I've already said that I don't think that high levels of youth crime has anything to do with spanking.