Liberal Creationism, or: Yippee, It’s Bell-Curve Time Again!

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nomadologist

Guest
Steven Pinker, discussing the Gregory Cochran, Jason Hardy & Henry Harpending paper on Ashkenazim intelligence, gets it pretty much spot on, IMHO:

CH&H, then, have provided prima facie evidence for each of the hypotheses making up their theory. But all the hypotheses would have to be true for the theory as a whole to be true--and much of the evidence is circumstantial, and the pivotal hypothesis is the one for which they have the least evidence. Yet that hypothesis is also the most easily falsifiable. By that criterion, the CH&H story meets the standards of a good scientific theory, though it is tentative and could turn out to be mistaken.

But is it good for the Jews? More to the point, is it good for ideals of tolerance and ethnic amity? On one interpretation, perhaps it is. Jewish achievement is obvious; only the explanation is unclear. The idea of innate Jewish intelligence is certainly an improvement over the infamous alternative generalization, a worldwide Jewish conspiracy. And attention to the talents needed in the middleman niche (whether they are biological or cultural) could benefit other middleman minorities, such as Armenians, Lebanese, Ibos, and overseas Chinese and Indians, who have also been targets of vicious persecution because of their economic success.

And yet the dangers are real. Like intelligence, personality traits are measurable, heritable within a group, and slightly different, on average, between groups. Someday someone could test whether there was selection for personality traits that are conducive to success in money-lending and mercantilism, traits that I will leave to the reader's imagination. One can also imagine how a finding of this kind would be interpreted in, say, Cairo, Tehran, and Kuala Lumpur. And the CH&H study could lower people's resistance to more invidious comparisons, such as groups who historically score lower, rather than higher, on IQ tests.

What can be done? In recent decades, the standard response to claims of genetic differences has been to deny the existence of intelligence, to deny the existence of races and other genetic groupings, and to subject proponents to vilification, censorship, and at times physical intimidation. Aside from its effects on liberal discourse, the response is problematic. Reality is what refuses to go away when you do not believe in it, and progress in neuroscience and genomics has made these politically comforting shibboleths (such as the non-existence of intelligence and the non-existence of race) untenable.

Rather than legislating facts, could we adopt a policy of agnosticism, and recommend that we "don't go there"? Scientists routinely avoid research that may have harmful consequences, such as injuring human subjects or releasing dangerous microorganisms. The problem with this line of thought is that it would restrict research based on its intellectual content rather than on its physical conduct. Ideas are connected to other ideas, often in unanticipated ways, and restrictions on content could cripple freedom of inquiry and distort the intellectual landscape.

Also, there are positive reasons to study the genetics of groups. Until the day that every person is issued a CD containing his or her genome, medicine will need the statistical boost of data on group differences when targeting tests and treatments to those most likely to benefit from them. Remember that the CH&H study grew out of research aimed at reducing the enormous suffering caused by genetic diseases. Many have effects on the nervous and endocrine systems, and connections with the psychological traits of sufferers and carriers may be unavoidable. And of course the tests could refute claims of group differences as easily as they could confirm them.

The genetics of groups is also an exciting frontier in the study of history. Many Jews have been thrilled by the discoveries of a common Y-chromosome among many of today's kohanim (believed to be descendants of the priestly caste in ancient Judea, who were themselves the descendants of Aaron), of genetic commonalities between the Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews traceable to a common ancestry in the Middle East, and of the presence of these genes in isolated communities in Africa and Asia that retain some Jewish rituals. Studies of the genes of African, American, and Australian populations could shed light on their prehistory, filling in pages that are sadly missing from the history of our species, as well as enlightening curious individuals about their genealogy.

In theory, we have the intellectual and moral tools to defuse the dangers. "Is" does not imply "ought." Group differences, when they exist, pertain to averages, not to individual men and women. There are geniuses and dullards, saints and sinners, in every race, ethnicity, and gender. Political equality is a commitment to universal human rights, and to policies that treat people as individuals rather than as representatives of groups; it is not an empirical claim that people are indistinguishable. Many commentators seem unwilling to grasp these points.

The revolution in human genomics has spawned profuse commentary about the perils of cloning and human genetic enhancement. But these fears may be misplaced. When people realize that cloning is just forgoing a genetically unique child for an identical twin of one of the parents, rather than resurrecting a soul or investing in an organ farm, I suspect no one will want to do it. And when they realize that most genes have costs as well as benefits (a gene might raise a child's IQ but also predispose him to a genetic disease), "designer babies" will lose whatever appeal they have. In contrast, the power to uncover genetic and evolutionary roots of group differences in psychological traits is both more likely to materialize and more incendiary in its consequences. And it is a prospect that we are, intellectually and emotionally, very poorly equipped to confront.​

Haha! Articles about how great and successful Ashkenazis are that don't cite any numbers that would indicate statistically or in any feasible/credible form that Ashkenazis are indeed "more successful" than others.

Who ever said people were "indistinguishable"? Of course people are distinguishable. It does not follow, however, that race is a biological fact rather than a social construct.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Translation: Mr. Tea continues to UNSUCCESSFULLY argue that "race" exists biologically.

What, exactly, is "race" in the human genome? Which genes mark it?

Oh don't be dense, it's not determined by a single gene, is it? It's the collective phenotypical expression of millions and millions of genes.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Oh don't be dense, it's not determined by a single gene, is it? It's the collective phenotypical expression of millions and millions of genes.

?Hahjahhaha
hahahah
hahahahahahhaah

Oh goodness.

Is it, Mr. Tea? What a wonderful answer to my question.
 

vimothy

yurp
Haha! Articles about how great and successful Ashkenazis are that don't cite any numbers that would indicate statistically or in any feasible/credible form that Ashkenazis are indeed "more successful" than others.

Who ever said people were "indistinguishable"? Of course people are distinguishable. It does not follow, however, that race is a biological fact rather than a social construct.

No, it's an article about a paper about how great and wonderful etc Ashkenazim are. I linked to both the article and paper in question earlier in the thread.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Leroi's argument amounts to:

'While I recognize we do not have any real biological basis to anchor our notions of "race" at this time, until we do, we should continue to use the word "race" to describe the the "genetic" origins of people based solely on how they look because we've always used ambiguous words in the absence of better ones in science.'

Do I even need to go into why this is a complete bullshit argument?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
?Hahjahhaha
hahahah
hahahahahahhaah

Oh goodness.

Is it, Mr. Tea? What a wonderful answer to my question.

Have you edited it, or did I misread "genes mark" as "gene marks"?

My apologies if it's the latter, I thought you were implying there was a 'race gene'. D'oh, never mind!
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
No, it's an article about a paper about how great and wonderful etc Ashkenazim are. I linked to both the article and paper in question earlier in the thread.

Oh yeah? Does the original article cite any real numbers on Ashkenazi "success" or does it just take this "empirical" observation for granted?

LOL
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Trans.: "I don't like what he says, but can't actually find anything wrong with it."

i don't know how it is possible for you to have missed it, but Nomad, HTML, and myself have been articulating over the past 16 pages, in a detailed and methodical manner, EXACTLY what is wrong with what people like this say.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Have you edited it, or did I misread "genes mark" as "gene marks"?

My apologies if it's the latter, I thought you were implying there was a 'race gene'. D'oh, never mind!

If race exists, there should be identifiable gene markers for it in the human genome. Can you point some out for me? Thnx. :D
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
i don't know how it is possible for you to have missed it, but Nomad, HTML, and myself have been articulating over the past 16 pages, in a detailed and methodical manner, EXACTLY what is wrong with what people like this say.

Just another exciting day on Dissensus: a Zionist-sympathizer uses the old "Jews run the World" line ostensibly as an argument *against* racism.

Will the hilarity ever end?

Stay tuned.
 

vimothy

yurp
i don't know how it is possible for you to have missed it, but Nomad, HTML, and myself have been articulating over the past 16 pages, in a detailed and methodical manner, EXACTLY what is wrong with what people like this say.

No, you've not. All you've said is that race doesn't exist and that anyone who says it does is a racist, period.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Someday someone could test whether there was selection for personality traits that are conducive to success in money-lending and mercantilism, traits that I will leave to the reader's imagination. One can also imagine how a finding of this kind would be interpreted in, say, Cairo, Tehran, and Kuala Lumpur.

BE CAREFUL OUR UNBIASED AHISTORICAL PURELY SCIENTIFIC YERUPEAN CLASSIFICATIONS OF RACES MAY BE USED BY MOHHAMEDANS TO JUSTIFY THEIR IRRATIONAL PREJUDICE OOPS I DID IT AGAIN

Waitaminnit... where was that place where scientific classification of races was used against Jews? I don't think it was Kuala Lumpur....

Seriously, the problem with the word 'race' is not "squeamishness" or other disguise-words for insufficient masculinity. The problem is that it is a word with a long history that we can't just slough off. Does anyone consider "Senegalese" to be a race? They're talking about ancestry (at least when there isn't considerable slippage), why do they insist on saying race?
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
I didn't see any numbers on this, partially because, of course, there would be no way to measure how "successful" Ashkenazis are compared to others, unless you simply compared mean salaries between religious groups.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
At least this time, for once, the retards making these arguments aren't Americans.

Nope, this time I get to rest assured that Vimothy isn't voting in the U.S.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Genes for mercantilism for godssake! Why the need to explain everything through magical biological determinism (oh I'm sorry, it's just a "tendency" towards mercantilism, as if that changes it)? Are these people creationists or what?
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Seriously, the problem with the word 'race' is not "squeamishness" or other disguise-words for insufficient masculinity.

Yeah, I love how way off the people are who claim others must be "squeamish" to call the "race" bluff. I have dissected all kinds of animals, cow fetuses, humans, I've observed surgeries. I am not at all squeamish about anything, so talking about "race" being a disposible and false category has nothing to do with my own lack of masculinity.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Genes for mercantilism for godssake! Why the need to explain everything through magical biological determinism (oh I'm sorry, it's just a "tendency" towards mercantilism, as if that changes it)? Are these people creationists or what?

You're left to your assumptions...I would wager if they're not creationists, they'd prefer to have creationists in office.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
wait, have you guys seen this Vimothy's blog??? i can't believe we are wasting our time with a through and through neo-con shit head.
 
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