An open letter to Simon Reynold on his 'Brit Pop box' critique

[Buick6]

An open letter to Simon Reynolds on his 'Brit Pop box' critique

I dunno, I haven't heard the boxset and some of the stuff will no-doubt sound horribly dated, but I think the sound there-in paved the way for some of the biggest bands in the world today, ie COLDPLAY and RADIOHEAD - both post-shoegaze creations...

Blacks in America love that stuff and probably listen to it more than say the Foo Fighters or Queen of the Stone Age (considering that the amount of Afro-americans that listen to rock n' roll any more is about the same amount of Arcade Fire fans who listen to Slayer...)

Most of the article is predicated on the 'English Invasion' type commercial success of the bands and their inherent failure, I mean isn't that the point of the whole sound as an 'alternative' to the American rock paradigm, regardless the aestheic influence is still quite large, a succeed by stealth almost when you look at how the 'image' of white American bands has been influenced by their Limey conterparts, and the sound. A good example I think are TRAIN who did OASIS better than OASIS, ironically both were 'one hit wonders' (in America) as history will prove. The fact that possibly the biggest(ish) 'rock' bands in the world - COLDPLAY & RADIOHEAD are post-shoegazers, blurs the argument.

There were forgotten bands that did quite well in the USA, I think the CATHERINE WHEEL certainly set up a blueprint for the above two bands, you had JESUS JONES and EMF who were massive in the early 90s, and despite JJ's hiphop namedropping, EMF exemplified everything fey and polite and Engerlisch about the whole 'Brit-plop' scene, and broke through on their own terms?

And sure the drummers for alot of the Brit-pop/shoegaze bands were prolly more inspired by that bloke from the Pixies than John Bonham, but RIDE, despite how mediocre and tinny and empty they sound NOW, had a GREAT drummer (in fact alot of the early more obscure shoegaze EP's sound quite good today, esp when they stick to ther 60s psych-garage-punk-rave-up roots and didn't try sound like the Smiths..)..And besides how good did AMERICAN indie bands from back then sound - Big Black, Die Kruezen, Long Ryders anyone?

I'm still waiting for that non-ironic NU-BRIT-METAL invasion to happen, by the way

 

[swears]

What A-mericains don't get about UK indie is that since Oasis, this stuff has been our 00s equivalent of hair metal (without the hairspray and virtuosity). It fills stadiums and shifts units. It's not "alternative" music, it's what the meathead guys like. Rugby players and your dad and Jeremy Clarkson. Ma and Da and cottage pie.

 

[petergunn]

Blacks in America love that stuff and probably listen to it more than say the Foo Fighters or Queen of the Stone Age (considering that the amount of Afro-americans that listen to rock n' roll any more is about the same amount of Arcade Fire fans who listen to Slayer...)

i get what you're trying to say, but i don't believe it's true...

 

[crackerjack]

Blacks in America love that stuff and probably listen to it more than say the Foo Fighters or Queen of the Stone Age

Is that the same gene that makes them like Phil Collins?

 

[subvert47]

What A-mericains don't get about UK indie is that since Oasis, this stuff has been our 00s equivalent of hair metal (without the hairspray and virtuosity). It fills stadiums and shifts units. It's not "alternative" music, it's what the meathead guys like. Rugby players and your dad and Jeremy Clarkson. Ma and Da and cottage pie.

Yes indeed, though I don't know about "since Oasis". Try "since Echo and the Bunnymen"


Coincidentally, I'm just listening to Paul Morley's double CD compilation "North By North West". If it was his intention to show the superiority of Manchester post punk to Liverpool, he's succeeded in spades...

CD1 Manchester — pioneering punk and post punk
Buzzcocks, The Fall, John Cooper Clarke, Magazine, The Durutti Column, Joy Division, The Passage, Blue Orchids, The Distractions, A Certain Ratio, Ludos, New Order, The Smiths

CD2 Liverpool — uninspired indie rock and associated tedium
Spitfire Boys, Yachts, Will Sergeant, OMD, Echo and the Bunnymen, Wah! Heat, Lori and the Chameleons, The Teardrop Explodes, Care, Pale Fountains, Dalek I Love You, Lotus Eaters, Frankie Goes To Hollywood

 

[Sick Boy]

Most of the article is predicated on the 'English Invasion' type commercial success of the bands and their inherent failure, I mean isn't that the point of the whole sound as an 'alternative' to the American rock paradigm, regardless the aestheic influence is still quite large, a succeed by stealth almost when you look at how the 'image' of white American bands has been influenced by their Limey conterparts, and the sound. A good example I think are TRAIN who did OASIS better than OASIS

Train didn't come anywhere close to doing Oasis better than Oasis, and furthermore, Train were a one hit wonder everywhere, and Oasis have had a long and enduring career worldwide (and yes, in North America they did have other successful singles beyond Wonderwall. I can distinctly remember hearing Champagne Supernova off that same album repeated mindlessly on daytime radio.) Fuckin' TRAIN and Oasis are not even comparable by any stretch of the imagination, in their sound or cultural reach.

As an English ex-pat living in North America, I have really come to appreciate Oasis. When you remove yourself from the fact they are a stadium-filling geezer-rock band, you are less tempted to take such an elitist stance and say that this is why they are bad. In fact, because that they have come to embody this working class, pub-culture image is what has made them so accessible to a great many people in Britain, and it's what makes them one of the greatest British rock bands of their time. They may not be making any huge moves in groundbreaking, innovative music, but for what they are (a rock band that write great, traditionally structured songs), they do it very, very well and have stood the test of time. This is not like hair metal at all: hair metal celebrated glamour and excess that only existed in the imagination of the public; Oasis celebrate being something that most people in Britain are.

I will not hear a bad word about them.

 

[swears]

I don't mean hair metal content, more like the demographic: regular workin' fellas. Fair enough, I suppose.

"Oasis celebrate being something that most people in Britain are."

Yeah, sort of why this country is a bit boring though, really.

 

[Gavin]

Train has had several disgustingly sappy hits in the states... "Meet Virginia" and another one a few years later... They are more like Counting Crows than Oasis, yes? The same fans from what I remember in high school.

 

[Sick Boy]

I don't mean hair metal content, more like the demographic: regular workin' fellas. Fair enough, I suppose.

"Oasis celebrate being something that most people in Britain are."

Yeah, sort of why this country is a bit boring though, really.

You really gotta come and check out some modern everyman "working class" rock going on over here in North America. You'd come back thanking your lucky stars that we have a band like Oasis doing it for us. You might of heard of this band, "Nickelback" for instance...

 

[Benny Bunter]

Surely the only decent Oasis record is 'Definitely Maybe', an album that the Americans didn't give a shit about at the time. The rest of Oasis' stuff has dated terribly...

 

[swears]

Yeah, I guess those sorts of bands like Nickelback or Creed or whatever are a better example. The hair metal is just what sprung to mind. Liam as the UKs Jon Bon Jovi? lol

I guess my point is those sensitive anglophile souls listening to this stuff in Buttfuck, Montana or wherever would probably hate it if they actually came from Britain themselves.

 

[Sick Boy]

I guess my point is those sensitive anglophile souls listening to this stuff in Buttfuck, Montana or wherever would probably hate it if they actually came from Britain themselves.

I completely agree with you, but isn't that sort of a shame? I think, if anything, it highlights the main fallacy in a lot of people's quick, knee-jerk and high brow criticism of Oasis.

 

[Gavin]

I guess my point is those sensitive anglophile souls listening to this stuff in Buttfuck, Montana or wherever would probably hate it if they actually came from Britain themselves.

I don't think any of these hypothetical people listen to Britpop... I don't know anyone in the States who does. More likely The Smiths or something.

There is very very little working class rock going on in the states -- I think metal has taken over this niche. Most rock is indie which basically means middle class producers & consumers.

 

[Mr. Tea]

"Oasis celebrate being something that most people in Britain are."

Yeah, sort of why this country is a bit boring though, really.

Hah, exactly.

I've never really cared for the kind of (sub-)culture Oasis represented, but a much more important reason why I dislike them is that I find matey's voice very annoying and the music rather boring. Even if they 'stood for' all the things I 'stand for' - not sure what that means really, but never mind - it still wouldn't make me like their music.

 

[Sick Boy]

Even if they 'stood for' all the things I 'stand for' - not sure what that means really, but never mind - it still wouldn't make me like their music.

I never said that: I said that they resonate strongly with the majority. Whether you in particular are a part of that majority or not is irrelevant.

 

[tate]

There is very very little working class rock going on in the states -- I think metal has taken over this niche. Most rock is indie which basically means middle class producers & consumers.

I'd have to disagree with this somehwat, I think. "Very very little working class rock" ... (hoping not to sound sarcastic at all here) What then would you call bands like Creed, Nickelback, Daughtry, and so many other bands of the Big-Scratchy-Man-Voice-Over-Power-Chords template? That music is absolutely everywhere in the US, as far as I can tell, and has been since Pearl Jam first achieved popularity in the wake of Nirvana. If you look at the top rock videos on MTV's current list, or the Bilboard Top 100, I'm guessing that you'll find heaps and heaps and heaps of this kind of rock. I'd say that for the non-urban working class this is the default category (though goes together with modern country, metal, and some pop). I personally don't feel very comfortable making sweeping generalizations about what "working class" or "middle class" Americans are listening to (it's a gigantic landmass not so easily described), but for purposes of discussion I'd wager that what I've just said is fairly accurate?

 

[tate]

(and yes, in North America they did have more successful singles than Wonderwall. I can distinctly remember hearing Champagne Supernova off that same album repeated mindlessly on daytime radio.)

I'd disagree with this too - I have no chart data to base my impression on, but I'd guess that Wonderwall was far and away the most popular Oasis song in the US.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'd disagree with this too - I have no chart data to base my impression on, but I'd guess that Wonderwall was far and away the most popular Oasis song in the US.

Re-reading that sentence I realize I wasn't that clear.

I didn't mean that the other singles were more successful.

I meant that they had more singles that were also successful.

My bad. I'll edit that.

 

[tate]

I didn't mean that the other singles were more successful.

I meant that they had more singles that were also successful.

Ah, I see. Yeah definitely, you're right, they had more than one hit and were pretty ubiquitous at one point on modern rock radio.

 

[Gavin]

I'd have to disagree with this somehwat, I think. "Very very little working class rock" ... (hoping not to sound sarcastic at all here) What then would you call bands like Creed, Nickelback, Daughtry, and so many other bands of the Big-Scratchy-Man-Voice-Over-Power-Chords template? That music is absolutely everywhere in the US, as far as I can tell, and has been since Pearl Jam first achieved popularity in the wake of Nirvana. If you look at the top rock videos on MTV's current list, or the Bilboard Top 100, I'm guessing that you'll find heaps and heaps and heaps of this kind of rock. I'd say that for the non-urban working class this is the default category (though goes together with modern country, metal, and some pop). I personally don't feel very comfortable making sweeping generalizations about what "working class" or "middle class" Americans are listening to (it's a gigantic landmass not so easily described), but for purposes of discussion I'd wager that what I've just said is fairly accurate?

Man-Voice-Over-Power-Chords-Rock (aka post-grunge) is very much over. Creed is done, Matchbox 20 is finished, those awful postgrunge supergroups are just about done (hopefully), Nickelback's close to the state fair circuit. Daughtry a last gasp? I think this music succeeds as inoffensive (i.e. it signifies bland emotion, whiteness, yearning-yet-impotent masculinity, resignation), so you'll hear it in doctor's offices, but fewer people are investing in these bands. It's a genre weak on ideas in the first place that's now 15 years old.

Whether it's a working class thing (your caveat probably warranted), ROCK's demo is being eaten alive by country & metal & emo (& rap maybe, though the fin de siecle rock2rap demographic shift was way overhyped in my opinion). There's a shift in what resonates as authentic -- throaty white man groaning is losing to the excesses of exaggerated country twang, death metal vocalization and emo nasal whine.