Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[droid]

Yep, its happening right now.

 

[droid]

you are right. during the covid pandemic several constitutional rights were thrown overboard, unthinkable restrictions were implemented. i remember already back then that certain people and groups warned that this would set a precedent. and i remember as well that these people were demonized, ridiculed and portrayed as fascists. but they were right, as we can see now.

"The judiciary hostile to fundamental rights, as we know it from the Berlin Administrative Court in the case of Palestine demonstrations, we owe to the era of Corona. Back then, the foundation was laid for lowering the threshold for banning demonstrations. Many people, due to justified uncertainty about the virus, thought it was correct that fundamental rights had to be restricted. Those who still demonstrated were broadly denigrated as "deniers" or conspiracy theorists. Hardly anyone stood up to protect these people, to say, "Hey, they also have fundamental rights." Currently, I see similar tendencies: Solidarity with Palestine is branded as "hateful antisemitism." The restriction and denial of fundamental rights are shrugged off or even celebrated. "Antifa means deportation," I recently read somewhere, accompanied by a picture of a Palestine demonstration." https://www.jungewelt.de/artikel/473789.autoritärer-staatsumbau-palästina-ist-der-lackmustest-für-die-bürgerlichen-freiheiten.html

This is kinda absurd. The police in Germany (and most other Western countries) were kicking the shit out of left wing protestors for decades before covid, constitutional protections or no. In Germany, specifically, pro-Palestinian activism was repeatedly targeted prior to covid, as was climate activism and anti-capitalist action. In fact the lockdown period was marked by one strange occurrence: mass, often violent right wing anti-lockdown protestors were mostly treated with kid-gloves in stark contrast to how the left are normally treated.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

do you guys think what's taking place in the usa could grow into a mass movement?

What, students refusing to do any work? Isn't that already a mass movement?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I don't understand what the goal is here...is it to turn a local conflict into a global one?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

It must be terrifying to the authorities when the rent-a-mob reaches the peak of its fervor and unleashes...the campsite!

 

[mixed_biscuits]

The more friends Palestine appears to Israel to have, the harder Israel will want to squash it; just as you hit a big bloke harder than you hit a small bloke, especially because you don't want an angry big bloke getting up again.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The more friends Palestine appears to Israel to have, the harder Israel will want to squash it; just as you hit a big bloke harder than you hit a small bloke, especially because you don't want an angry big bloke getting up again.

In sum, then, every dead Palestinian child is the fault of Western protesters who are demanding that Israel stop killing them, and not of the Israelis who are killing them.

 

[version]

 

[yyaldrin]

This is kinda absurd. The police in Germany (and most other Western countries) were kicking the shit out of left wing protestors for decades before covid, constitutional protections or no. In Germany, specifically, pro-Palestinian activism was repeatedly targeted prior to covid, as was climate activism and anti-capitalist action. In fact the lockdown period was marked by one strange occurrence: mass, often violent right wing anti-lockdown protestors were mostly treated with kid-gloves in stark contrast to how the left are normally treated.

all of that is true yes but one thing has always been possible and that was to organize demonstrations and protests. not during the pandemic though, which saw the right of assembly forbidden and implemented by crisis laws, which were later overruled in court. now i do believe that crossing a red line like that for the very first time since probably war times will lower the treshold of doing it a second time, and a third time, etc.

 

[droid]

all of that is true yes but one thing has always been possible and that was to organize demonstrations and protests. not during the pandemic though, which saw the right of assembly forbidden and implemented by crisis laws, which were later overruled in court. now i do believe that crossing a red line like that for the very first time since probably war times will lower the treshold of doing it a second time, and a third time, etc.

Yeah, to prevent the spread of a disease that has killed, and continues to kill millions of people. It was probably the only time in recent history that police and government actually restricted movement to protect populations instead of oppressing them. Overreach or abuses of these powers aside, this is what anarchists call legitimate authority, or what classical liberals would recognise as a reasonable use of state power. As Rawls put it: that authority is legitimate if and only if it acts in accord with principles the subjects agree to - ie the most fundamental principle of protecting the lives of citizens.

To put it another way, when the police are cracking open the heads of anti-war protestors, or banning anti government protest thats seen as a clearly anti-democratic abuse of power. When the police ban public gatherings in the midst of floods, hurricane, or pandemic, thats a reasonable use of state power as its aims are humanitarian, not political. Similarly, if the cops smash your door down and drag you away because you wrote something mean about a politician online, its oppression. When they smash your door down to evacuate you in the face of a wildfire, its legitimate.

 

[droid]

This is kinda absurd. The police in Germany (and most other Western countries) were kicking the shit out of left wing protestors for decades before covid, constitutional protections or no. In Germany, specifically, pro-Palestinian activism was repeatedly targeted prior to covid, as was climate activism and anti-capitalist action. In fact the lockdown period was marked by one strange occurrence: mass, often violent right wing anti-lockdown protestors were mostly treated with kid-gloves in stark contrast to how the left are normally treated.

A perfect example right here.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

In sum, then, every dead Palestinian child is the fault of Western protesters who are demanding that Israel stop killing them, and not of the Israelis who are killing them.

Not every one, just some of them. Have the protesters even done a risk assessment for their interventions along these lines?

 

[mixed_biscuits]

If the protesters want to reduce Israeli aggression they need to make it seem as if Palestine will be kept in hand by the international community...how do you do this?: protest in favour of Israel because that makes Israel feel stronger in comparison to Palestine rather than weaker, and if it's stronger it doesn't need to be as much of a bully to suppress Palestine. Israel is worried about a threat so you need to minimise rather than maximise the threat.

 

[mixed_biscuits]

I'm not saying you change the strategy because you've changed your viewpoint of what's right or wrong, I'm saying they need to use more cunning.

If you want Israel to slack off and to be defeated in the long run then you need to give them a false sense of security. Slogans like 'From the river to the sea' give them the exact opposite.

That's why the marches need proper leadership because as it is the rabble are treating them like a showcase for their own values rather than a means to the end.

 

[dilbert1]

If the protesters want to reduce Israeli aggression they need to make it seem as if Palestine will be kept in hand by the international community...how do you do this?: protest in favour of Israel because that makes Israel feel stronger in comparison to Palestine rather than weaker, and if it's stronger it doesn't need to be as much of a bully to suppress Palestine. Israel is worried about a threat so you need to minimise rather than maximise the threat.

Kinda wild that you’re more deluded about the actual effect of the protests on the conflict than many of the protesters themselves

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Kinda wild that you’re more deluded about the actual effect of the protests on the conflict than many of the protesters themselves

These popular protests typically fail in their objectives so it's not much of a stretch that they can also be counter-productive.

 

[dilbert1]

 

[mixed_biscuits]

View attachment 18687

If you've got to look more than half a century ago for the last win...

 

[mixed_biscuits]

There's a structural problem. Large popular protests can't manoeuvre like top-level politicians can because there are too many people involved and they can't coordinate in any subtle way.

Poltics at the top is done by small numbers of people because that enables a greater range of tactics, including subterfuge (which mass protest can't do).

 

[mixed_biscuits]

Sometimes people claim a small victory for protest if one of their own politicians changes their avowed stance, the implication being that this brings the politician closer to the protest's objective.

No, all that's happened is that the politician has been forced into abandoning the possibility of any bluffing strategy and is now playing with their cards on the table, making meeting their objective less likely not more.