Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

maxi

maxi

Well-known member
Well that brings me back to Avi Shlaims shred of hope, the growing western public support for Palestinian rights

Macron may be slightly more motivated to pursue some kind of peace broker role. So far hes the only western leader to have met with Abbas, who despite his political impotence is the only acceptable representative of the palestinians currently. Doing that does mean something symbolically, potentially in a way that could continue. Hes likely doing it because France has the largest jewish and muslim populations in europe. In other words, public perception does play a role, and widespread outrage here in the UK could also have an impact.

Plus, no one wants world war 3, so a line has to be drawn somewhere at some point. Its really down to the US though. Theyre the decisive actor. If there was a mass popular movement there calling for an end to the bloodshed it could have an effect.

I realise this may sound naive but what other hope is there?
 
WashYourHands

WashYourHands

Cat Malogen
IDF do a sweep of Gaza, find maybe 20 hostages, move out and leave it in an even deeper state of ruin and deprivation playing it as a generous return to ‘peace’ ie handing its civic administration to an alt-alliance group and the whole disgrace rumbles on long past our lifetimes

Turkey’s govt position on Hamas ruffled a few feathers, a state with conflicts both immediate and regional. Negotiations over Black Sea shipping and Ukrainian grain must be a nightmare of committee meetings and Syria‘s devastation very recent still

Bleak
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
maxi said:
American Jews dont decide US foreign policy. And besides many find Israel an embarrassment
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I wish more people understood this. Evangelicals with freaky ideas about Israel's supposed role in the imminent 'Rapture' outnumber actual Jews in America many times over.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
maxi said:
Whether theyre jewish or not as individuals is irrelevant. Theyre pursuing longstanding US policy which has been to provide Israel support since 1967 when its importance as a strategic outpost in the middle east emerged. The previous non-Jewish secretaries of state werent any less supportive. Obama wasnt any less supportive, nor Trump.
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Indeed, and Trump moved the US embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, thereby effectively recognising it as Israel's capital, which was seen as a massive provocation by Palestinians.

Strange to think that many of Trump's most ardent supporters are massive antisemites themselves, not that he gives a shit about any of that.
 
maxi

maxi

Well-known member
mixed_biscuits said:
But Maxi thinks that French Jews influence their foreign policy.
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I was saying that a large voting base of both jews and muslims in france may influence macron in presenting himself as a peace broker. That doesnt mean theyre directing foreign policy in the way I took you to be implying about jews in the US. As if that's all that can explain it. I said american jews dont decide US policy; but all western populations have some degree of influence on their governments.

But with regard to jews in the US, recent decades have seen more and more jews distancing themselves from israel due to its continued and increasingly exposed human rights abuses. Particularly the younger generation. This is well documented in Finkelsteins book "Knowing Too Much" - american jews are largely liberal, respect the law and dont want to be out there defending war crimes. This is the jewish population im talking about, not politicians who happen to be jewish.

This was also addressed by chomsky in an al jazeera interview from this year, which highlights the evangelical factor Tea mentioned:

"You have to remember, opinion in the United States with regard to Israel has shifted. Israel used to be the darling of the liberal American Jewish community.

Well, that began to change … now, the main support for Israel is the far-right evangelical community that has become politicised in the last 20 or 30 years as very strong supporters of Israel, mostly for extreme anti-Semitic reasons. Meanwhile, liberals, liberal Democrats, have drifted away. Look at the last poll: among Democrats, there’s more sympathy for Palestinians than for Israel. It’s particularly true among younger people, including younger Jews."
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
maxi said:
I was saying that a large voting base of both jews and muslims in france may influence macron in presenting himself as a peace broker. That doesnt mean theyre directing foreign policy in the way I took you to be implying about jews in the US. As if that's all that can explain it. I said american jews dont decide US policy; but all western populations have some degree of influence on their governments.

But with regard to jews in the US, recent decades have seen more and more jews distancing themselves from israel due to its continued and increasingly exposed human rights abuses. Particularly the younger generation. This is well documented in Finkelsteins book "Knowing Too Much" - american jews are largely liberal, respect the law and dont want to be out there defending war crimes. This is the jewish population im talking about, not politicians who happen to be jewish.

This was also addressed by chomsky in an al jazeera interview from this year, which highlights the evangelical factor Tea mentioned:

"You have to remember, opinion in the United States with regard to Israel has shifted. Israel used to be the darling of the liberal American Jewish community.

Well, that began to change … now, the main support for Israel is the far-right evangelical community that has become politicised in the last 20 or 30 years as very strong supporters of Israel, mostly for extreme anti-Semitic reasons. Meanwhile, liberals, liberal Democrats, have drifted away. Look at the last poll: among Democrats, there’s more sympathy for Palestinians than for Israel. It’s particularly true among younger people, including younger Jews."
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Yep - most US Jewish voters don't support Netanyahu, and only a third think Israel's efforts towards peace are sincere:

www.pewresearch.org

7. U.S. Jews’ connections with and attitudes toward Israel

Eight-in-ten U.S. Jews say caring about Israel is an essential or important part of what being Jewish means to them. Nearly six-in-ten say they personally
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org

while white Evangelicals are over twice as likely as Jews to say that Israel is the God-given land of the Jewish people:

www.pewresearch.org

Modest Warming in U.S. Views on Israel and Palestinians

In recent years, U.S. public opinion has become modestly more positive toward both sides in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, according to a new Pew Research Center survey.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org

Given that a quarter of all US voters describe themselves as Evangelicals, I think it's fair to say that while an Israel Lobby undeniably exists in the US and is very powerful, it is overwhelmingly made up of Christians and not Jews.
 
maxi

maxi

Well-known member
But it does seem that, because of the scale and shock of the hamas attacks on october 7, that there has been a resurgence in liberal western support and sympathy for Israel, which I don't think would be as strong had the pretext for Israels current assault been something as minor as in previous years.

It happens that, just as this support has grown, Israel has decided to carry out its largest and most horrific gaza assault yet. While this is happening, there are jews still only just beginning to grieve for dead relatives and friends, or friends of friends of friends (there arent that many jews in the world and most will know someone in israel) who will also understandably be in a state of fear and sensitivity to any perceived antisemitism that may now arise.

And many jews in the uk, at least those in more religious or culturally close-knit jewish communities, are basically in denial still about what the IDF does. Im jewish myself btw I should probably mention - I know what its like in these communities. Some in the older generation are literally incapable of accepting the idea that israel would ever target civilians for example - the mythology they grew up with runs too deep. Their identities have become personally attached to a state, so if you criticise it, you insult them. (I do wonder if in spite of what finkelstein/chomsky say about US jews, the waning support is not quite the same in the UK for some reason, except for with younger jews and those who are more assimilated).

And at the same time, pro palestinians are coming out in large numbers also to show support. And this gets misinterpreted by some jews as support for hamas because they dont really have a clue whats going on, frankly. Then there are jewish demonstrations in response that will get interpreted as support for israeli state terror (which is an oversimplification as a lot of it comes from fear and not believing the truth, and just grieving for those killed and taken hostage), then there are a handful of left wingers genuinely celebrating hamas attacks, but not that many, and many others who are genuinely racist towards Palestinians, and all this mess is distorted and fucked up further by mainstream and social media. Its just a chaotic situation of emotional extremes on all sides, interacting with and extending each other. All of the above is a simplification as well because there are many other factors and perspectives im not even mentioning. Its just crazy
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
DannyL said:
I think words and discourse fail a bit in the face of what we've been seeing,.
Some reading anyway for those like myself who have catching up to do:
brockley.blogspot.com

Reading on the current tragedy in Israel/Palestine

In this post, some links relating to Hamas' Operation Al-Aqsa Flood and the Israeli response. Needless to say, the material linked here come...
brockley.blogspot.com brockley.blogspot.com
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Good to be reminded of BFB. I'd largely forgotten about him since stopping using Twitter.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
version said:
It's enough to have people online brand you a terrorist sympathiser and anti-Semite, judging from some of the Reddit and YouTube comments I've seen.
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Maybe you'll think twice before posting "Why I love Hamas and hate all Jews: a thread" on 'X' in future, eh?
 
V

version

Well-known member
Meanwhile, Bibi had this to say on the prospect of a ceasefire;

Just as the United States would not agree to a ceasefire after the bombing of Pearl Harbor or after the terrorist attack of 9/11, Israel will not agree to a cessation of hostilities with Hamas after the horrific attacks of October 7.

Calls for a ceasefire are a call for Israel to surrender to Hamas, to surrender to terrorism, to surrender to barbarism. That will not happen.

The Bible says that there is a time for peace and a time for war. This is a time for war.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
version said:
Meanwhile, Bibi had this to say on the prospect of a ceasefire;

Just as the United States would not agree to a ceasefire after the bombing of Pearl Harbor or after the terrorist attack of 9/11, Israel will not agree to a cessation of hostilities with Hamas after the horrific attacks of October 7.
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Except the US wasn't handing suitcases full of cash to bin Laden right up until Sep 10, 2001, was it, Bibi?
 
Clinamenic

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Fine, nobody acknowledge that moderately clever and uncalled-for Monty Python joke. Absolutely fine. I'll make sure whoever sacked the person who got sacked gets sacked.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Clinamenic said:
Fine, nobody acknowledge that moderately clever and uncalled-for Monty Python joke. Absolutely fine. I'll make sure whoever sacked the person who got sacked gets sacked.
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Is it a kind of post-ironic hip thing to like something as emblematically boomerish as Monty Python among your age group?
 
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