mixed_biscuits
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I was talking about droid's second coming fantasy in which the Jews will receive retribution from the angry God of nature.
Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...
- Thread starter Mr. Tea
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mixed_biscuits
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Mate, you're not even boosted.
But, it's true, Tea has been quite reticent to find evidence that increasing vaccinations correlate with better overall health.
maxi
Well-known member
so quickly on your Finkelstein analogy if you insist:
1. He made that statement when the news had just broken that Gazans had burst through the gates of what he regards as a concentration camp. He views this in the context of his parents both suffering in concentration camps.
2. When it emerged how many had been killed, he expressed regret for what he said (you can hear this in the Piers Morgan interview). He also said elsewhere it would be "depraved" to celebrate the attack.
3. He's Jewish, and has an extremely trauma-saturated family background thanks to the Nazis, which I imagine you don't. And that makes a difference sorry to tell you.
4. He's done more to expose and document the facts of the conflict than probably anyone in the world. He's not just some random rude guy online.
5. Above all, I didn't even call you an 'antisemite' or 'nazi' except in an obvious gag - "forgive me if you cant understand tone and context or found it impolitic."
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Hind Rajab, 6, found dead in Gaza days after phone calls for help
Hind was last heard from trapped in a car under fire, surrounded by bodies of her relatives, 12 days ago.
www.bbc.com
I'm fucking done, man. I'm just done. I don't want to hear about fucking tunnels in Rafah or Sinwar or rockets. I don't want to hear "most moral army in the world" ever again, as long as I live. end this fucking war, negotiate a deal for the hostages, make peace.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
Body of missing Palestinian girl Hind Rajab found in destroyed car
The body of 6-year-old Hind Rajab has been found decomposing in the car where her family were killed by Israeli gunfire.
look, fuck Sinwar and Deif and Haniyeh and the Hamas politburo, and their cynical exploitation, and brutal oppression, of their own people
but may Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir and all the other assholes gleefully cheering this on burn in some hell for eternity
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
that voice is going to be burned into my brain forever
there have been 1000s of terrible stories but this one I will remember on my deathbed
there have been 1000s of terrible stories but this one I will remember on my deathbed
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
And sure enough, just after Hind's story breaks and on the eve of a looming massacre in Rafah, here comes one of the worst Twitter hasbara accounts (of big accounts I'd probably put her second for callous vileness, after Oren Barsky) with a UNRWA style "allegations, no evidence" smear that...women and children did Oct 7. There really is no bar too low for habarist bullshit.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I think I'm pretty much done with dissensus, but just bc I posted about it already, the Palestinian Red Crescent released a more extensive of Hind's call with the ambulance dispatcher
I could say 1000 things about the endless stream of IDF Tiktoks gleefully celebrating prisoner abuse and wanton destruction or the Kahanists' messianic revanchism and Ben-Gvir trying to ignite apocalyptic war in the West Bank or the intense racism permeating Israeli society and the fact that even Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are now basically under military rule as they were from 48-66, but honestly what's the point? Debating 5 people with abysmal politics who also have zero idea what the fuck they're talking about? Anyway, as I said this little girl's voice trying to desperately to be brave and hold it together - a hell of lot better than a lot of adults would in the same spot - surrounding by her dead relatives, alone with an Israeli tank, will stick with me as long as I live.
The inherent contradiction at the heart of Israeli history, politics, culture, is the claim and desire to be a democracy while denying Palestinians equal democratic rights, whether in their own state or in Israel - except those they couldn't kick out in 48, who Israelis begrudgingly hold up as proof it's not an ethnostate, as if they magically erase the ~5.5 mn stateless people in the territories. Every sickness Yeshayahu Leibowitz predicted in 1968 - a nation of secret police, a debased army of occupation, democratic backsliding - has come true in Israel, and it is all inevitable until that contradiction is resolved. Every bizarre schizophrenic split in Israeli society - a diverse multiethnic democracy shot thru with intense visceral racism - is a product of that contradiction. That contradiction which is impossible to resolve until Palestinians have equal democratic rights.
Recognize that Palestinian rights are equal to yours, not contingent on yours. Release Marwan Barghouti, the only Palestinian leader with the organic credibility to make a deal and make it stick. Negotiate in good faith. Make the hard choices, on both sides, to get past the past and make peace, just like they had to do in South Africa and Northern. Or let the messianic right and your bloodlust drag you into an apocalyptic forever war. Israel has been trying to kill its way out for 75 years. Accelerating that failed strategy is a madness. I have very little hope tbh, bc Oct 7 has driven all but a tiny minority of Israelis crazy with vengeful bloodlust (which didn't take much driving for a lot of people tbh) but a little hope is always better than none.
it's been real yall. never forget that solidarity is the cornerstone of a better world. free palestine.
I could say 1000 things about the endless stream of IDF Tiktoks gleefully celebrating prisoner abuse and wanton destruction or the Kahanists' messianic revanchism and Ben-Gvir trying to ignite apocalyptic war in the West Bank or the intense racism permeating Israeli society and the fact that even Palestinians with Israeli citizenship are now basically under military rule as they were from 48-66, but honestly what's the point? Debating 5 people with abysmal politics who also have zero idea what the fuck they're talking about? Anyway, as I said this little girl's voice trying to desperately to be brave and hold it together - a hell of lot better than a lot of adults would in the same spot - surrounding by her dead relatives, alone with an Israeli tank, will stick with me as long as I live.
The inherent contradiction at the heart of Israeli history, politics, culture, is the claim and desire to be a democracy while denying Palestinians equal democratic rights, whether in their own state or in Israel - except those they couldn't kick out in 48, who Israelis begrudgingly hold up as proof it's not an ethnostate, as if they magically erase the ~5.5 mn stateless people in the territories. Every sickness Yeshayahu Leibowitz predicted in 1968 - a nation of secret police, a debased army of occupation, democratic backsliding - has come true in Israel, and it is all inevitable until that contradiction is resolved. Every bizarre schizophrenic split in Israeli society - a diverse multiethnic democracy shot thru with intense visceral racism - is a product of that contradiction. That contradiction which is impossible to resolve until Palestinians have equal democratic rights.
Recognize that Palestinian rights are equal to yours, not contingent on yours. Release Marwan Barghouti, the only Palestinian leader with the organic credibility to make a deal and make it stick. Negotiate in good faith. Make the hard choices, on both sides, to get past the past and make peace, just like they had to do in South Africa and Northern. Or let the messianic right and your bloodlust drag you into an apocalyptic forever war. Israel has been trying to kill its way out for 75 years. Accelerating that failed strategy is a madness. I have very little hope tbh, bc Oct 7 has driven all but a tiny minority of Israelis crazy with vengeful bloodlust (which didn't take much driving for a lot of people tbh) but a little hope is always better than none.
it's been real yall. never forget that solidarity is the cornerstone of a better world. free palestine.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm sure I speak for many others when I say that you'll be sorely missed if this really is the end of the line for you here, P.
Yes, I'll miss your posts but appreciate your frustrations with posting here.
Re. Israeli public opinion, I thought the anti-Nehanyatu feeling was pretty strong? Most of the liberal Israeli sentiment I've seen has been as you say, insane, but I was hoping this was a misrepresentation to some degree.
Re. Israeli public opinion, I thought the anti-Nehanyatu feeling was pretty strong? Most of the liberal Israeli sentiment I've seen has been as you say, insane, but I was hoping this was a misrepresentation to some degree.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Isn't it quite possible that much of that anger towards him is coming from Israelis of whatever political stripe who blame him (not unreasonably) for failing to prevent the 10/7 attacks, or even from right-wingers who think he isn't 'punishing Hamas' hard enough, though?
dilbert1
Well-known member
Chris Cutrone, from his recent essay “Israel, Palestine and the Left”
[…]
What both “Ceasefire now!” and “Defund Israel!” have in common, whatever their merits and defects, is that they are demands on the capitalist state, and moreover on its political parties — specifically, demanding these things of one Party in particular, the Democrats.
But the Biden Administration has indeed called for a ceasefire: it wants different tactics and even strategy of Israel. Most importantly, it wants Israel to give “land for peace,” end the settlements in the West Bank, and, most pertinently, not to devastate Gaza or displace the Palestinians there. Or so at least they say.
Why not believe them?
…
Why was a two-state solution not achieved in the aftermath of the Cold War in the 1990s?
It’s actually very simple:
The Palestinian “political leadership” has refused to officially accept the existence of Israel as a state.
After many wars, uprisings, terrorism, etc., the Palestinians lost and the Israelis won.
The stronger were victorious and the weaker were defeated. Case closed. History’s pronouncement is undeniable — and irreversible.
The Israelis expected a peace treaty of surrender by the Palestinians, which the Palestinians have refused. So Israel has continued its war against an enemy that has refused to surrender.
But the Palestinians have been defeated. This is not going to change. Ever.
Indeed, the recent Hamas attack was an act of desperation in a condition of defeat. This doesn’t justify or condone it — indeed it convicts it of futility and wanton, pointless destructiveness. Hamas has admitted as much, as they say they expected an Israeli overreaction and the destruction of Gaza and the Palestinians there, which they thought at best would create a wider regional war and at worst would make the Palestinian question impossible to ignore by the international community. Hamas spent everything it had in one final bid for political relevance. So it’s all in the end a public-relations stunt.
…
Hamas is a capitalist group. What does this mean? It accepts capitalism and is not in any way a challenge to it. It is a particularly Right-wing form of capitalism. It is a criminal gang. They are indeed terrorists. Terrorism is by its very nature capitalist and not socialist politics. Capitalist crime. — Crime is capitalist, not socialist. It is the capitalism of the weak, not socialism. And the weak shall not inherit the Earth. They never have.
Hamas are the Kapos in the concentration camp, recruited from ordinary criminals to rule over the rest, and hoping to slip away and survive through the mayhem. They were literally chosen by Israel to rule the Gaza Strip. The game of “military transactions” (Hegel) played between Israel and Hamas, no matter how violent and gruesome, is merely negotiating the terms of capitalism, through extremely sensationalist marketing propaganda — in images as well as deeds. And the bargaining-chips that are played consist of ordinary people’s lives — as victims and not agents, objects and not subjects of bloody capitalist politics. As the workers always are.
Hamas has aimed and aims to divide the civilian population along religious or ethnic lines. This means dividing the working class. They wagered — and lost — the lives of Palestinians in ways capitalist politicians always do. Hamas’s leadership are literally billionaires whose individual personal wealth rivals that of Donald Trump. But what have they built? Their wealth is skimmed off the misery of others — as with all gangsters. They will retire comfortably, while their fighters are slaughtered.
Today’s “Left” are a parody side-show of capitalist gangsterism, cheerleading the slaughter.
What is required in Palestine or Israel is the working-class political unity of Jewish and Arab and Muslim and Christian and other (for instance, “foreign/guest”) workers in the struggle for socialism. This is entirely contrary to either Arab nationalism — such as that of the PFLP — or Islamism — as with Hamas. It is also contrary to Zionism. It is against the nation-state — the nationalist basis for politics.
So long as capitalism persists and is not overcome in socialism, globally, there will be social and geographical divisions that invite political divisions to which the working class and other people will become inevitably subject. There will be war, inter-national state and/or civil, “legitimate” or otherwise. Always capitalist war.
But original historical Marxism said, “No war but class war!” — refusing the terms of capitalist warfare. — I know that this is regarded as “ultra-Leftism” and “Marxist purism” and “dogmatism,” but still. I prefer to maintain my self-respect as a dogmatic Marxist than pose in the mirror as a wannabe gangsta, mouthing the words to someone else’s rap. “Intifada until victory!” will be a very long time. Forever. Never.
But we can still refuse to endorse and support the capitalist politics that actively seeks to exploit and enforce such divisions and warfare: Hamas and other dominant Palestinian political forces as well as Zionism are clear examples of such destructive politics, whose devastating and anti-social results we are seeing now as well as for the past century.
platypus1917.org
[…]
What both “Ceasefire now!” and “Defund Israel!” have in common, whatever their merits and defects, is that they are demands on the capitalist state, and moreover on its political parties — specifically, demanding these things of one Party in particular, the Democrats.
But the Biden Administration has indeed called for a ceasefire: it wants different tactics and even strategy of Israel. Most importantly, it wants Israel to give “land for peace,” end the settlements in the West Bank, and, most pertinently, not to devastate Gaza or displace the Palestinians there. Or so at least they say.
Why not believe them?
…
Why was a two-state solution not achieved in the aftermath of the Cold War in the 1990s?
It’s actually very simple:
The Palestinian “political leadership” has refused to officially accept the existence of Israel as a state.
After many wars, uprisings, terrorism, etc., the Palestinians lost and the Israelis won.
The stronger were victorious and the weaker were defeated. Case closed. History’s pronouncement is undeniable — and irreversible.
The Israelis expected a peace treaty of surrender by the Palestinians, which the Palestinians have refused. So Israel has continued its war against an enemy that has refused to surrender.
But the Palestinians have been defeated. This is not going to change. Ever.
Indeed, the recent Hamas attack was an act of desperation in a condition of defeat. This doesn’t justify or condone it — indeed it convicts it of futility and wanton, pointless destructiveness. Hamas has admitted as much, as they say they expected an Israeli overreaction and the destruction of Gaza and the Palestinians there, which they thought at best would create a wider regional war and at worst would make the Palestinian question impossible to ignore by the international community. Hamas spent everything it had in one final bid for political relevance. So it’s all in the end a public-relations stunt.
…
Hamas is a capitalist group. What does this mean? It accepts capitalism and is not in any way a challenge to it. It is a particularly Right-wing form of capitalism. It is a criminal gang. They are indeed terrorists. Terrorism is by its very nature capitalist and not socialist politics. Capitalist crime. — Crime is capitalist, not socialist. It is the capitalism of the weak, not socialism. And the weak shall not inherit the Earth. They never have.
Hamas are the Kapos in the concentration camp, recruited from ordinary criminals to rule over the rest, and hoping to slip away and survive through the mayhem. They were literally chosen by Israel to rule the Gaza Strip. The game of “military transactions” (Hegel) played between Israel and Hamas, no matter how violent and gruesome, is merely negotiating the terms of capitalism, through extremely sensationalist marketing propaganda — in images as well as deeds. And the bargaining-chips that are played consist of ordinary people’s lives — as victims and not agents, objects and not subjects of bloody capitalist politics. As the workers always are.
Hamas has aimed and aims to divide the civilian population along religious or ethnic lines. This means dividing the working class. They wagered — and lost — the lives of Palestinians in ways capitalist politicians always do. Hamas’s leadership are literally billionaires whose individual personal wealth rivals that of Donald Trump. But what have they built? Their wealth is skimmed off the misery of others — as with all gangsters. They will retire comfortably, while their fighters are slaughtered.
Today’s “Left” are a parody side-show of capitalist gangsterism, cheerleading the slaughter.
What is required in Palestine or Israel is the working-class political unity of Jewish and Arab and Muslim and Christian and other (for instance, “foreign/guest”) workers in the struggle for socialism. This is entirely contrary to either Arab nationalism — such as that of the PFLP — or Islamism — as with Hamas. It is also contrary to Zionism. It is against the nation-state — the nationalist basis for politics.
So long as capitalism persists and is not overcome in socialism, globally, there will be social and geographical divisions that invite political divisions to which the working class and other people will become inevitably subject. There will be war, inter-national state and/or civil, “legitimate” or otherwise. Always capitalist war.
But original historical Marxism said, “No war but class war!” — refusing the terms of capitalist warfare. — I know that this is regarded as “ultra-Leftism” and “Marxist purism” and “dogmatism,” but still. I prefer to maintain my self-respect as a dogmatic Marxist than pose in the mirror as a wannabe gangsta, mouthing the words to someone else’s rap. “Intifada until victory!” will be a very long time. Forever. Never.
But we can still refuse to endorse and support the capitalist politics that actively seeks to exploit and enforce such divisions and warfare: Hamas and other dominant Palestinian political forces as well as Zionism are clear examples of such destructive politics, whose devastating and anti-social results we are seeing now as well as for the past century.
The Platypus Affiliated Society – Israel-Palestine and the “Left”
platypus1917.org
droid
Well-known member
Its wrong in pretty much every factual or historical assertion. Id dissect it, but it would be a more enjoyable and productive use of time to watch the slow decomposition of the dead slug I found on my back stoop this morning.