Bear Stearns...

DWD

Well-known member
Good points but it is it the fault of the accountants or the rules that they have to follow?

Ah, yes. For "accountants" please read "accounting standard-setters".

To me, the agencies haven't done their job. They've just gone "yeah, it's fine" and stood back and watched as they've been proved totally wrong. Luckily for them they don't have to wear it and there is no comeback for people who trusted them. Their credibility ought to be in tatters now.

Apparently, more than half of their revenues in recent years have come from their structured products rating businesses. There was no way in the world that they were going to slap shitty ratings on the products they were being shown. I don't know why anyone trusted them, but they're going to have a hard time winning investors round after this.
 

vimothy

yurp
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vimothy

yurp
I don't think it's that simple. As with any market, it's not just the seller that determines the price. Banks weren't forcing this down investors' throats. In addition, banks weren't just selling this stuff - they were buying it too.

Well, yeah. Banks are active on the supply and demand side -- they were packaging risk up for sale an buying it on the cheap. And because banks are banks, even when they're not commercial and not regulated by the central bank, as we've seen, they're still too valuable to be allowed to fall. Banks operate on the pretense of investive security, but in reality all financial activity is uncertain and risky and the point NNT makes is that the more you think you have your risk covered with derivatives and other hedges (or whatever), the more you mistake the unlikely for the impossible and the more likely that when the unexpected happens, it will be a disaster.

For another, although the risk associated with the riskier slices of subprime mortgage securities was definitely mispriced (by lenders, investors and rating agencies), I'm less convinced that the risk associated with senior and super-senior debt was off - like I said, actual defaults still haven't eaten into a lot of this paper. But because everyone's terrified that losses will emerge there, no-one's willing to buy it. The market as a whole has effectively repriced the risk, and the pendulum may well have swung too far the other way - but banks are the only ones who have to recognise this repricing by reporting it as a loss.

Of course, I think that's exactly right and in line with the stuff I've been linking to. Debt per se if definitely not the problem as I see it. The shitty CDO debt was a problem, and while everyone figures out who owns what, it will remain a problem to some extent. This really points to solvency, not liquidity (although liquidity was a problem, I don't see how liquidity can be a problem anymore. For instance, the Fed is currently draining US banking reserves to counter excess liquidity), in that no one knows who's going to be holding what when the music stops.

I agree that prime mortgages and senior debt was probably fairly priced. Even the sub-prime "bad debts" will get repackaged up and sold onto someone else who can try to extract some value from them. I don't think that banking or usury is the problem, and I don't want to do banks' jobs for them. The problem is really confusing uncertainty with risk, and not being able to recognise when your 25-sigma movements are not really 25-sigma at all. Then it becomes an issue of trust and, again, uncertainty.

That's right. Is it good regulation, though?

Almost certainly not, and that's probably unsuprising. Be interesting to see what happens next. The SEC have been pretty quiet, and I guess that the investment banks are the Fed's responsibility now.
 
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RobJC

Check your weapon
IdleRich, looks like you were right:

It was just last Monday [10th March] that former Bear Stearns CEO "Ace" Greenberg responded on CNBC to the rumor that Bear faced a liquidity crisis:

"It's ridiculous, totally ridiculous."​

It was - the question should have been did Bear Sterns face a "solvancy crisis" - I would have liked him to have said if that was ridiculous.
 

vimothy

yurp
Wave of Foreclosures Drives Prices Lower, Lures Buyers -- WSJ

A glut of foreclosed homes of historic proportions is starting to drive down U.S. home prices faster as lenders put more properties on the market and buyers show signs of interest.

The ability of America's lenders to manage this fire sale will be crucial to determining how long the housing market stays in the dumps -- and how quickly blighted neighborhoods can heal. The oversupply is severe: In some major markets, including Las Vegas and San Diego, foreclosure-related sales have accounted for more than 40% of all sales in recent months.

On Monday, new data suggested that pressures like these are starting to drive prices low enough to attract some buyers back into the market. Sales of previously occupied homes jumped 2.9% in February from the month before, the National Association of Realtors said, the first increase since July.

The median price dropped 8.2% from a year earlier to $195,900, the biggest drop recorded by the Realtors in the current slump.​
 

DWD

Well-known member
Banks operate on the pretense of investive security, but in reality all financial activity is uncertain and risky and the point NNT makes is that the more you think you have your risk covered with derivatives and other hedges (or whatever), the more you mistake the unlikely for the impossible and the more likely that when the unexpected happens, it will be a disaster.

Which is an interesting point. But anyone who says "Ooh, there are problems ahead" just before a problem appears is going to look quite smart. Taleb's been attacking risk management orthodoxy since at least 97 and I'm not sure that this crisis is proof that he's correct.

This really points to solvency, not liquidity (although liquidity was a problem, I don't see how liquidity can be a problem anymore.

I get the impression that liquidity is currently only an intermittent problem from a bank funding point of view - but liquidity remains the root of the problem as far as asset valuation is concerned. And that's my point: the lack of a market for securitised debt has forced banks into write-downs on assets which are still performing.

I agree that prime mortgages and senior debt was probably fairly priced.

Sorry - I probably wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about prime mortgage and senior debt - I was talking about the senior and super-senior tranches of subprime RMBS and CDOs. Large numbers of these tranches still haven't experienced any principal credit loss - but that doesn't prevent them being marked down heavily.
 

vimothy

yurp
Which is an interesting point. But anyone who says "Ooh, there are problems ahead" just before a problem appears is going to look quite smart. Taleb's been attacking risk management orthodoxy since at least 97 and I'm not sure that this crisis is proof that he's correct.

Indeed, and a significant proportion of The Black Swan is spent explaining exactly that and underlining the impossibility of prediction. I'm sure Taleb would tell you that it's all luck and randomness being mistaken for skill. However, he does discuss finance (not surprising given his CV) a lot and makes some germane points. It's not the fact that he accurately predicted the "credit crisis" (he didn't, and it wouldn't have been a "Black Swan" if he did), but that he appears to have correctly identified some wider trends that are playing out today.

It seems true that banking is generally Gaussian but with these extreme, fat-tail outlier disasters. (FWIW: I think banking is great and a good and I don't agree at all with the Austrian view that credit is inflationary). Why do we have these events that seem, ex post, rather obvious, but yet draw everyone like lemmings to a cliff? Taleb points to the epistemic arrogance that comes from thinking your (extremely crude in predictive terms) mathematical models explain everything -- why worry about the 25-sigma event if it's not going to happen? And look what happens when it does... the Fed will make everything better.

I get the impression that liquidity is currently only an intermittent problem from a bank funding point of view - but liquidity remains the root of the problem as far as asset valuation is concerned. And that's my point: the lack of a market for securitised debt has forced banks into write-downs on assets which are still performing.

Agreed, but isn't the liquidity crisis (if that's what this is) really due to no one being sure about who's solvent and who's not?

Sorry - I probably wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about prime mortgage and senior debt - I was talking about the senior and super-senior tranches of subprime RMBS and CDOs. Large numbers of these tranches still haven't experienced any principal credit loss - but that doesn't prevent them being marked down heavily.

Right -- that's to be expected, though, surely. "Bad debt" is not necessarily ever really bad debt -- just ask JP Morgan!

So basically, yeah, the Fed, which I think is probably doing an impossible job in an ok way, should provide liquidity in times of liquidity crisis, just like it was supposed to do when it was founded. However, it's not clear -- to me at least -- that it should provide liquidity to unregulated investment banks, and it's not clear that it should provide liquidity to insolvent banks.

[BTW, I'm starting to think coming off the gold-standard was a really bad idea... are there any fans on Dissensus?]
 

vimothy

yurp
Had another thought -- maybe it's not a normal liquidity crisis (no really high interbank interest rates), but a kind of liquidity crisis in reverse: there was just too much money and people didn't know what to do with it, so they chucked it at whatever they could. Now they're chucking it at T-bills because they're worried about private sector risk, but the T-bill rate is getting pretty close to zero, and we're getting near to the limits of what the fed can accomplish via open market operations... Problem being that the value of money is going down constantly, which is triggering this flight, which is further reducing the value of currency in a big inflationary spiral.
 

3underscore

Well-known member
It was a simple standard liquidity crisis on an individual concern. A run on the bank - no one would leave money with Bear no matter the price bear would pay.

The matter is never of where the money goes elsewhere to cause the liquidity crisis. It is because the company with the crisis can't draw the funds in. Bear was not insolvent - it simply could not fund its overnight position because of Prime Broker withdrawals and no access to repo.

The Fed Window should probably have been opened at the time Glass-Steagall was revoked. To call Investment Banks unregulated is entirely misrepresenting the industry - they are regulated, but nowhere near as heavily as commercial banks. Why? Because they aren't commercial banks. But all the rules for the differences have been removed - I have my own opinions and thoughts on why Bear was allowed to slide by the Fed. Yet also remember that accessing the Fed window that has kindly been provided, you are in all kinds of trouble anyway. See how the impact was made on many UK banks when rumour was they had accessed the same from the BoE.

T Bills have plenty of room - not anywhere near like they were in 2001. The TIPS are interesting though - you have to remember banks are investing heavily in these simply to assure their own liquidity, moving out to certain maturities to bring out their schedules to withstand a squeeze. The move to Treasuries is hardly new.

I am not going to get in to Taleb for now.
 
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vimothy

yurp
It was a simple standard liquidity crisis on an individual concern. A run on the bank - no one would leave money with Bear no matter the price bear would pay.

Not sure if this is directed at me or RobJC, but I wasn't talking about BCS (although, as far as I can see, there are still some unanswered questions about what happened to that firm), I was talking about everything that's going at the moment. I understand what a liquidity crisis is, I'm just asking why these wider systemic problems have occured. It seems to me that though we have plenty of money in the global economy, we lack stable currencies, and so money is a poor store of value -- better do something with it quick, like seek out whatever (diminishing) returns you can find.

Econbrowser had a post recently about negative real interest rates pushing up commodity prices:

negative+real+interest+rates.png
 
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RobJC

Check your weapon
I read this as Bear Stearns had a seriously exposed balance sheet towards worthless assets pointing to a basic insolvancy issue, and when liquidity rumours started, this evaporated any investor and lender confidence exposing the balance sheet, defacto making the bank unable to hid its insolvancy by shifting liquidity around, hence the JP bid. Interesting to know if Bear called JP or the Fed first. This all looks like a fairly doomed (but PR savvy) way of handling the situation in proping up an Investment Bank to propagate the myth that there may be trouble ahead, but not as bad as it looks, etc. The Fed is culpable in this, but seriously, what is the option (and its not worth saying that they deserved it, or haha silly investment bankers, etc - there are a lot of people tied into this that earn a fraction of the wages the top 10% do).
 

vimothy

yurp
Have you read Martin Wolf's column in the FT, Rob?

The rescue of Bear Stearns marks liberalisation’s limit:

Remember Friday March 14 2008: it was the day the dream of global free-market capitalism died. For three decades we have moved towards market-driven financial systems. By its decision to rescue Bear Stearns, the Federal Reserve ... declared this era over. ... Deregulation has reached its limits.

Mine is not a judgment on whether the Fed was right to rescue Bear Stearns... I do not know whether the risks justified the decisions... Mine is more a judgment on the implications of the Fed’s decision. Put simply, Bear Stearns was deemed too systemically important to fail. This view was, it is true, reached in haste, at a time of crisis. But times of crisis are when new functions emerge, notably the practices associated with the lender-of-last-resort function of central banks, in the 19th century.

The implications of this decision are evident: there will have to be far greater regulation of such institutions. The Fed has provided a valuable form of insurance to the investment banks. Indeed, that is already evident from what has happened in the stock market since the rescue: the other big investment banks have enjoyed sizeable jumps in their share prices... This is moral hazard made visible. The Fed decided that a money market “strike” against investment banks is the equivalent of a run on deposits in a commercial bank. It concluded that it must, for this reason, open the monetary spigots in favour of such institutions.

Greater regulation must be on the way. The lobbies of Wall Street will ... resist.... But, intellectually, their position is now untenable. Systemically important institutions must pay for any official protection they receive. Their ability to enjoy the upside on the risks they run, while shifting parts of the downside on to society at large, must be restricted. This is not just a matter of simple justice... It is also a matter of efficiency. ...

I greatly regret the fact that the Fed thought it necessary to take this step. Once upon a time, I had hoped that securitisation would shift a substantial part of the risk-bearing outside the regulated banking system, where governments would no longer need to intervene. That has proved a delusion. ...

Yet the extension of the Fed’s safety net to investment banks is not the only reason this crisis must mark a turning-point in attitudes to financial liberalisation. So, too, is the mess in the US ... housing markets. ... Again, this must not happen again... The ... aftermath will surely be much more regulation than today’s. ...​
 
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RobJC

Check your weapon
Not sure what point really underlies that article - has the Fed "killed the dream" by interveneing, or are they trying to prop it up and then enforce a different type of regulation to protect the dream (which none of the investment banks want)?. Should have the Fed let Bear slide into the abyss?
 

vimothy

yurp
Not sure what point really underlies that article - has the Fed "killed the dream" by interveneing, or are they trying to prop it up and then enforce a different type of regulation to protect the dream (which one of the investment banks want)?. Should have the Fed let Bear slide into the abyss?

I don't think that the Fed "killed the dream". (And I think that they did let BCS slide into the abyss in some sense -- it wasn't much of a bail-out anyway). I don't think that they have too many options given the (highly leveraged) risks and their limited means. I think the point is that regulation of the "shadow financial sector" is now inevitable, if investment banks are to be regarded as strategically important institutions that can't be allowed to fail on their own terms. Perhaps there also needs to be a rethink of monetary policy.
 

vimothy

yurp
Sorry - I probably wasn't clear. I wasn't talking about prime mortgage and senior debt - I was talking about the senior and super-senior tranches of subprime RMBS and CDOs. Large numbers of these tranches still haven't experienced any principal credit loss - but that doesn't prevent them being marked down heavily.

I was mulling this over last night -- I think we should be worried that this is basically correct, and that the sub-prime fiasco occured without any serious problems affecting the system. If you run "stress tests" on simplified sub-prime debt models (good examples here), the situation starts to look pretty scary. This crisis was seemingly caused by the realisation that firms are over-exposed, but we've not yet really seen the shocks (recession, high interest rates, falling home prices) hit... The phrase "house of cards" springs to mind.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"Totally excellent book, btw! Not too sure about your other points."
Just off to see the Black Swan guy speak at the Oxford Literary Festival (assuming it's not sold out) - think it ought to be good.
 
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