Euro 2008 - we support our local team

[crackerjack]

I managed to catch most of the Portugal v Turkey game (despite the protestations of my fellow campers) and I thought that Portugal looked pretty good although Turkey were showing a disappointing lack of ambition and belief.
So far all the games have gone pretty much as expected I guess, first big game tonight though with Netherlands v Italy.
My (forced) investment on Switzerland is already hanging by a thread... anyone been watching it so far?

All of Portugal-Turkey (which was excellent) and scraps of the others - seems like i got lucky with my choice of game. 4 games, 6 goals, this is the problem with international football right now.

Anyone read this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jun/08/euro2008?gusrc=rss&feed=fromtheobserver

The example of united is obviously misleading, since they rely on 3 or 4 brilliant forwards/attacking midfielders who can play anywhere.

 

[crackerjack]

I've already lost one bet - which was Croatia to win by more than one goal. Should've known that for most teams professionalism rules and leads defended rather than extended.


(word of warning, I intend to be the voice of doom throughout the tournament)

 

[hucks]

Anyone read this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jun/08/euro2008?gusrc=rss&feed=fromtheobserver

The example of united is obviously misleading, since they rely on 3 or 4 brilliant forwards/attacking midfielders who can play anywhere.

Thought the point that these sorts of complicated tactics never work in international teams - takes too long to get an understanding together - was well made, though.

Germany - sorry, The Germans - were good last night, although the defending by Poland was terrible. Would have been nice if the commentators had've called them "naive at the back", thus making them the first non-African team to be described as such.

I've already lost one bet - which was Croatia to win by more than one goal. Should've known that for most teams professionalism rules and leads defended rather than extended.

Backing less than 2.5 goals per game looks to be the safe thing to do so far....

 

[IdleRich]

"The example of united is obviously misleading, since they rely on 3 or 4 brilliant forwards/attacking midfielders who can play anywhere."

Yeah. I mean, if all teams play with no strikers but they have a midfielder who gets more than forty in a season then I don't think that that will necessarily be a bad thing for the viewer. Maybe the simple idea of defenders/midfielders/attackers is meaningless anyway when you already have formations like 1-4-3-1-1.

"The first international match, between Scotland and England in 1872, involved 13 forwards; you will not have seen that many in the Euros until the fourth or fifth day of the tournament. Not that a surfeit of strikers necessarily means plenty of goals: that first international finished 0-0."

How the hell did that happen?

"Roma's 4-1-4-1 formation frequently became 4-1-5-0. United beat Roma (minus Totti) 7-1 last year in a Champions League quarter-final"

Is he sure about that bit?

"Thought the point that these sorts of complicated tactics never work in international teams - takes too long to get an understanding together - was well made, though."

Yeah - the only way you can get that kind of thing is if you have a national side where all the players come from the same club like Netherlands/Ajax back in the day I guess. I think the gap between the club game and the national game is widening all the time.

 

[mos dan]

4-6-0 seems to be quite a zeitgeisty observation, esp for a czech fan: we are hardly drowning in good strikers. germany seem to have a fair few though eh? i thought the germans looked good, but eminantly beatable. send someone even half as fast as ronaldo down that right channel and they'll leak goals all afternoon.

pleased with the czech win, but not convinced we'll be able to beat anyone of a decent calibre.. where will the goals come from? plasil or someone has to step up, we look short on ideas without nedved or rosicky.

on saturday night we went to the fenerbahce social club! it was great:
http://humblefootball.blogspot.com/2008/06/euro-2008-turkey-0-portugal-2-among.html

 

[DigitalDjigit]

Any good analysis blogs? I really enjoyed the ones from forum members during the '04 and '06 tournaments.

 

[crackerjack]

Holland 3 Italy 0

So who saw this last night and was it as good as they say? i caught the highlights from the pooint where Holland were two up and, not surprisingly, it was mostly Italy on the attack. But the 3rd dutch goal wasn't half bad and the 2nd was on some total football tip.

So are they gonna shock eveyone by playing above expectation rather than below them? And will Dirk Kuyt win Player of the Tournament?

 

[IdleRich]

Saw some of it through the window of the pub while talking to my girlfriend in a cafe across the street - don't think that I'm that qualified to comment really. The first goal, my understanding is that Panucci was ruled as playing Van Horseface onside despite the fact that he was lying down injured off the pitch. Seems very harsh to me, the ref said that they have been instructed that until you ask permission to leave the field of play you still count as active for the purposes of on/off side but surely that's just to close the loophole of a player "hiding" off the pitch to avoid offside or stepping off to leave a striker offside, it's not supposed to punish someone who is injured? On ther other hand, there is nothing so satisfying as to cheat a cheat so I'm happy to see it stand.
When was the last time Italy lost 3-0?

 

[hucks]

I think the rule is fair enough - how can a referee establish if a player is injured or not in this instance? Best to remove intent from the equation entirely.

The game was really good, though Italy were unlucky to lose 3-0. The second two goals came directly from a goal-line clearance and a great save from Van Der Sar, and they had other chances too. Their back four was awful, though. Really slow, really badly organised. On the third goal, they had a chance to re-set after Kuyt missed the initial chance, but decided not to bother.

 

[IdleRich]

"I think the rule is fair enough - how can a referee establish if a player is injured or not in this instance? Best to remove intent from the equation entirely"

Yeah I agree it's best to remove the question of intent but it's hard to see how the player in this instance might have thought he was gaining an advantage by pretending to lie down off the pitch. Presumably if he was fit he would have just jogged back to position and got involved in the play. Basically, I would be outraged if my side conceded a goal like that but, for some reason, in the present circumstances, I'm beginning to think it's not so bad.

 

[crackerjack]

When was the last time Italy lost 3-0?

Italy's worst competitive defeat since a bunch of S. Americans beat them back in 1970...

 

[crackerjack]

Yeah I agree it's best to remove the question of intent but it's hard to see how the player in this instance might have thought he was gaining an advantage by pretending to lie down off the pitch. Presumably if he was fit he would have just jogged back to position and got involved in the play. Basically, I would be outraged if my side conceded a goal like that but, for some reason, in the present circumstances, I'm beginning to think it's not so bad.

I think FIFA may come to regret this rule. Yesterday was one thing, but if a defender is seriously injured and is being treated behind the goalline and the opposition push up, effectively playing as if offside no longer applies, it's going to look quite callous.

 

[IdleRich]

Fair play to the ref, this is the relevant bit of the rule:

11.11 DEFENDER LEGALLY OFF THE FIELD OF PLAY
A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be considered in determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which attackers are in an offside position. Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line closest to his off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee's permission (and who thus requires the referee's permission to return) is not included in determining offside position."

 

[IdleRich]

"I think FIFA may come to regret this rule. Yesterday was one thing, but if a defender is seriously injured and is being treated behind the goalline and the opposition push up, effectively playing as if offside no longer applies, it's going to look quite callous."

Yes, but this is already well known to be the case if a player is lying injured on the pitch. The attacking team could profit by this if the prone player plays them onside. The thing that the Italians didn't know (and neither did I) is that it makes no difference which side of the line you are on.
Funny how no-one actually knows the rules of the game....

 

[crackerjack]

Yes, but this is already well known to be the case if a player is lying injured on the pitch. The attacking team could profit by this if the prone player plays them onside.

But if the injured player is anywhere near the area of play - and unless he was over by the corner flag, he'd have to be - the ref would whistle for a drop ball anyway.

 

[gabriel]

Yes, but this is already well known to be the case if a player is lying injured on the pitch. The attacking team could profit by this if the prone player plays them onside. The thing that the Italians didn't know (and neither did I) is that it makes no difference which side of the line you are on.
Funny how no-one actually knows the rules of the game....

this might be a recent change in the rules - my brother was saying that there was an incident similar to this in the 80s or something, but in that case, the only reason the player who was 'off' the pitch (behind the goal line in the actual goal i think) counted as on the pitch and therefore playing the attacker onside, was because his fingers were wrapped around the goalpost and thus on the pitch side of the goal line. if you see what i mean

 

[IdleRich]

"But if the injured player is anywhere near the area of play - and unless he was over by the corner flag, he'd have to be - the ref would whistle for a drop ball anyway."

He doesn't have to but I see your point, if someone goes off the pitch then the referee doesn't normally stop the game - I always thought that that was because the player was out of the game but it turns out that that is not the case.
One thing I do hate is players pretending to be injured and then the crowd booing when the other team (who may have a promising move developing) look reluctant to boot it out. They should get rid of that custom I reckon and just play to the whistle.

"this might be a recent change in the rules - my brother was saying that there was an incident similar to this in the 80s or something, but in that case, the only reason the player who was 'off' the pitch (behind the goal line in the actual goal i think) counted as on the pitch and therefore playing the attacker onside, was because his fingers were wrapped around the goalpost and thus on the pitch side of the goal line. if you see what i mean"

Grasping the post in agony as he was convulsed by his death throes? I reckon you're right though, they've buggered about with the off-side rule so much since it started off (used to have to be three defenders including the goalie) that I'm sure that bit has been changed as well.

 

[crackerjack]

Grasping the post in agony as he was convulsed by his death throes? I reckon you're right though, they've buggered about with the off-side rule so much since it started off (used to have to be three defenders including the goalie) that I'm sure that bit has been changed as well.

and every one of those changes has been designed with one aim in mind - to make it easier to score - something the punditocracy (noble exception of lineker) seem to overlook when they moan about the 'active/inactive' laws ad infinitum.

 

[hucks]

and every one of those changes has been designed with one aim in mind - to make it easier to score - something the punditocracy (noble exception of lineker) seem to overlook when they moan about the 'active/inactive' laws ad infinitum.

Stupid laws, though.

Anyway, enough offside. Spain v Russia. Got to be Spain, right? Russia lost to England, after all....

 

[IdleRich]

Well, it's kicked off and I'm watching the commentary on bbc update thing while I pretend to do work. They need to update faster though, it's so frustrating.