High profiles murders in the U.S: what is going on?

[nomadthethird]

Philip Slater: Do you have to be stupid to be a man?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-slater/do-you-have-to-be-dumb-to_b_27389.html

Men are struggling today to define themselves--books on the subject fill the bookstores. But all attempts to define masculinity run up against the same dilemma: to define masculinity is to restrict it, for it means distinguishing it from femininity. "Masculinity" must include only what "femininity" leaves out. To be "masculine" is therefore to be limited. Men had to be content with leftover scraps from the women's behavioral dinner table.

Today's male is like the skilled craftsman of old, displaced by the machine. Feeling a sense of loss, of uselessness, of vanishing function, men are clinging desperately to ever-shrinking definitions of masculinity. As women have expanded into "male" arenas there has been a huge increase in body-building and steroid use by men--part of what psychiatrist Harrison Pope calls the "Adonis Complex," a growing male preoccupation with body-image. When women burst the bonds of gender constraint and decided to define themselves as full human beings, "masculinity" had to shrink itself into a narrower and narrower corner.

 

[nomadthethird]

Shonx, the problem with the solutions you are suggesting is that there are largely asymmetrical, and overburden women with responsibility for their own bad luck and bad upbringings. Plus, they ignore the fact that an entirely asymmetrical power structure, where men are often entitled to treatment and behaviors that women are not, is the real problem underlying rape and abuse, and needs to be tackled head on-- not by further restricting female behaviors in some misguided attempt to change male behaviors.

 

[nomadthethird]

This is magical thinking, imagining that women are supposed to be endowed with special inherent ability and resolve to cope with or resolve any situation, however horrendous it may be, and however powerless they may actually be in confronting it, no opportunities being available (or made available) to do so..

Freud's continued relevance is writ large on this thread.

A huge part of why so many people place most if not all of the onus on women in rape and abuse cases has something to do with early childhood magical thinking, when parents seem to have godlike powers to make everything right, to solve horrible problems, to keep the child from harm. This power is obviously imaginary, but is perceived as entirely real by the child.

From early on, I've noticed that many male children are possessive of their mothers, and they begin to hold women to impossible standards because they pick up on society's signals regarding appropriately "feminine" behavior very young.

Women really can't win. If they *do* leave the abuser, they're being irresponsible and robbing their children of the ever-important Father Figure. If they don't leave the abuser, no one gives any consideration to the fact that maybe she can't leave him for financial reasons, or that perhaps she has "battered wives" syndrome, or maybe she's so broken down from the abuse that she doesn't believe she can live on her own. Many abused people actually end up blaming themselves, and believing the abuser when the abuser says they're bad, they're stupid, they're worthless.

If women do manage to leave AND to move on and form new lasting relationships, the step-father is often seen as a threat to the male child's relationship with the mother. Women are condemned for being so selfish as to put their psychological and physical needs above their child's right to possess them totally.

I remember when I was a kid, my younger brother said to me that if our father died, mom would never get married again. He was completely offended by the suggestion that most adults will move on and remarry after a spouse passes away.

Women who are mothers are expected not to have sex lives, or at least not to prioritize their psychosexual needs over motherhood. This is a cardinal sin. But if a man dumps his whole family for a younger mistress for purely selfish sexual reasons? Oh well, boys will be boys! His wife should've lost that pregnancy weight! Plus, she wasn't "putting out" as often as she should've been.

People who can't see that in sexual matters the power balance is very clearly weighted toward male entitlements and privilege simply aren't looking.

 

[nomadthethird]

Regarding the ads on male consumption of alcohol and increase of likelihood to rape, I see the main problem being that it basically stigmatizes the men who aren't going to do it with a return to the "all men are potential rapists" line of thought, and for those that want to do it anyway, they won't care.

Regarding the ads on female consumption of alcohol and increase of likelihood of being raped, I see the main problem being that it basically stigmatizes the women who aren't going to be raped with a return to the "all drunk women are potential rape victims" line of thought, and for those that want to do it anyway, they won't care if a woman isn't drunk.

 

[nomadthethird]

Alcoholism does seem to be pretty usual in both parties,

Which parties? The rapist and the rape victim? Actually, no it isn't. "Alcoholism" doesn't even correlate mathematically/statistically in rape. The situation-specific consumption of alcoholic beverages, usually to a moderate degree, has a small correlation in rape victim risk and a much larger correlation in rape perpetration risk.

What about this is hard for you to understand? We're not going to combat abuse and rape with half truths and media hysteria.

This is why I don't think people that act respectfully to women should be tarred with the same brush of "potential rapist". Why alienate people who already agree with the main aims?

According to every last major and respected study on the matter, men who have more rigid and traditional notions regarding the roles of men and women are more likely to be rapists.

Nobody is saying "all men are potential rapists", people are saying that our very society's values and rigid traditional gender norms are SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN to contribute to rape and the justifications and excuses that we make for rapists that keep them out of jail. The only way to stop rape is to redress this hideous imbalance, especially when it comes to the legal system, but even in everyday situations, in schools, and in the media. Even in our own personal interactions or discussions of sexuality.

Rapists are not aliens. They're people. Just like you or me. They're misguided people who don't even know they've committed rape in most cases.

If men really agree that rape is a problem and that rapists are misguided people who need to be educated so they understand what rape is, why would they be offended by commercials or PSAs that are geared toward rapists? If you are not a rapist, then it's not for you. Why would you assume that it is? What is offensive about the attempt to protect women from rape by addressing the REAL FACTORS that are PROVEN to contribute to rape, rather than some hysterical, innaccurate, misinformed ideas regarding female alcohol consumption?

 

[nomadthethird]

"Furthermore, as long as men target women who have been drinking or young women under 18, there is a good chance that the police won't bother to interview or investigate, and the allegations won't appear "on the books"."

So basically they're easier and the police are less likely to take the story seriously. This next article indicates the increase in possibility of opportunistic rape - "In 50 per cent of all reported rapes the victim was seriously drunk; the figure is likely to be far higher for cases that went unreported."

http://www.newstatesman.com/200509260024

OMG.

Waffles, read that article.


First of all, Shonx, a "three month spike" is not necessarily statistically significant. Do you know anything about math or statistics? There are often anomalous spikes in crime or rape or anything else, but this does not mean that there's a general trend.

This article relies on a short spike in "reported" rapes near a holiday season--yet the author assumes that the spike in reported rapes is *caused by* rather than simply correlated with female drinking. Everyone tends to drink more during the holidays. This may mean rapists are drinking more and are therefore more emboldened. This is not taken into consideration. The author also assumes that an increase in reports of rape necessarily means that more rapes were committed. This, according to the last 50 years of record keeping on rape stats, is highly unlikely. The increase in reported rapes usually comes on the heels of women feeling more likely to be believed and taken seriously in their claims.

Could it be that more of these rapes were perpetrated by strangers, which explains the higher rate of report (women are more likely to report rapes perpetrated by strangers)? Where are the figures for how drunk the male perpetrater was? Seeing as most women who are raped while drunk were probably drinking with the rapist before the rape, most victims could easily supply this information. Could it not be the increased drinking of men (which has been proven to increase sexual aggression, not just to "correlate" with it) that actually caused the increase in REPORTED rapes?

What makes anyone think that during the next holiday season, when, as the author notes, "British women defy the cold, hail and snow by donning their shortest skirts and heading for the bars" rapes may not spike again simply because people are going on more dates, the situation in which a woman is most likely to be raped outside the home? Could it be that men are simply more aggressive during these times because there is more stress all around?

Despite all of these rather obvious challenges to the logic and supposed "statistical analysis" employed in the first half of the article that remain unaddressed, are you really so sure that the author agrees with you, Shonx?

Let's look at this passage:

(The British Crime Survey says 15 per cent of all raped women are too drunk to give their consent.) But another reason that drunk women are vulnerable has been pinpointed by Julie Bindel, founder of Justice for Women. "The fact is that many young women, through no fault of their own, fall into a cliche that makes them vulnerable. They're dressed up in heels and skirts, they're on the sauce, and they're more sexually open than previous generations. In my opinion, there's a constituency of rapists who know what juries don't like, and target women accordingly."

So even this author admits that very, very few women are raped who are passed out drunk. Then Julie Bindel points out that, rather than being the fault of women who are drinking and dressing in sexier clothes to celebrate the holidays, rapes are being committed because men know they will get away with rape if their victim was dressed scantily, was drunk, and was attractive. In court, as the judge cited also points out, no one will believe that the women didn't "have it coming to her." So even this article would suggest that changing the stereotype that tells men that all women who have a fun night out are incorrigible whores who are fair game for rapists is the only real way to combat date rapes that include alcohol as a factor.

This is exactly the opposite of the point you seem to think the author is making.

You also want to accuse me and Waffles of being unfair and claiming that "all men are potential rapists" (which neither of us ever did, even if it's quite possibly true that anyone through the wrong upbringing can become a rapist), when the author of this article herself claims openly that she agrees with these findings:

Half of a group of high-school males, for instance, said that they believed it acceptable "for a guy to hold a girl down and force her to have sexual intercourse" if he found her sexually attractive. In a survey of 7,000 men, conducted by Shere Hite, 46 per cent responded in the affirmative to the question, "Have you ever wanted to rape a woman?"

These findings suggest that nearly half of all men are potential rapists. The author seems to believe that a whopping 70% of men could commit rape if they think they will get away with it--yet you have no problem with this article?

In any case, despite the complete lack of credibility in the statistical analysis portion of this article, I'll agree with the last few paragraphs:

Thus, in court (if, by some miracle, the case should get that far, as only 10 per cent of reported cases make it to trial), a rapist is far less likely to be convicted if the victim was drunk. Aside from assuming that the woman's memory was impaired, juries often perceive drunken young women as "asking for it", female jurors apparently being most judgemental in this respect. As a judge commented in a Criminal Bar Association report last year, "Juries always want a victim who is as pure as the driven snow. Women on juries especially are very particular about young girls who go out and have nine vodka ices. I don't think there are many women on a jury who are particularly sympathetic in that situation."

The myths surrounding rapists - that they are wild-eyed types with shifty eyes and unkempt beards - are another factor that lets women down in court. It is very difficult for an accuser who has been drinking to secure a conviction against a defendant who is smartly turned out, holds down a job and has a girlfriend. So long as a rapist chooses his victim carefully, the issue of consent - always a "he said, she said" situation anyway - will be skewed in his favour.

Change is possible. In New York, some boroughs recorded conviction rates as high as 80 per cent after the advent of trained specialist rape prosecutors (a measure that has been implemented by the Crown Prosecution Service in the UK, but, as yet, without sufficient funding or success). Until conviction rates in this country rise, rapists will continue to have free rein to indulge their worst impulses, and women can never be entirely safe. And until the government properly addresses the imbalance that is written into our legal system, it seems likely that rape cases will continue to rise and spike. I, for one, am not looking forward to the figures that will be published after this year's party season.

 

[nomadthethird]

By the same author:

Retrosexual, or just misogynist?

But the nastiness that often accompanies all the retro-sexist shtick emerged again late last month when the writer Jessica Valenti posted a video on YouTube about online misogyny. A typical response was a comment from a man who told her to make him a sandwich (as did many others) before threatening to "c*** punt" her.

Women are meant to laugh gamely at all this, because the line goes that we're now in control, that the feminist revolution is long complete, and men are the ones in crisis. Yet 167 women are raped each day in the UK, one in four will experience domestic violence in her lifetime, and the number being killed by their partners - two each week - remains intransigent. True, through sheer hard work girls often outclass boys at school and university. And what happens next? They are paid 17 per cent less than men for full-time work, or 36 per cent less for part-time work.

 

[nomadthethird]

Further reading of Kira's articles just gets better.

Drunk girls - it's no big deal

...If men are killing themselves through drink at twice the rate of women (and an ONS report in 2006 found not only that alcohol-related death rates are much higher for males than for females, but that the gap between the sexes has actually widened in recent years), why aren't dishevelled young men being used to illustrate binge drinking reports? Why wasn't the fact that "twice as many men as women die from alcohol-related causes" headline news last year? Does no one care about men's well-being?

The answer, it seems, is that what spurs these stories isn't concern for anyone's health, but a wish to scare women into submission. The drunk girl - loud, wild and free - represents everything that traditionalists hate in a woman. She isn't concerned with being a moral role model for the community; she's much too busy having fun for that. How dreadful.

"What about rape?" you say. "Aren't drunk wo men more likely to be raped?" Well, yes, there certainly is evidence that opportunist rapists target drunk women, and no doubt we should all look out for each other accordingly. The main problem here clearly isn't the behaviour of women, however - it's the behaviour of rapists, stupid. In fact, along with those health statistics, all this suggests is that if anyone should be encouraged to stay indoors knitting, it's men.

 

[Shonx]

Could it be that rapists and abusers are especially good at singling out women who are psychologically less likely to report them, to challenge their authority, to leave a bad relationship, to have especially low self-esteem because society partially blames them for their own sexual traumas? Research suggests that this is, in fact, exactly what sexual predators excel at doing. It is the responsibility of the parents of female children to ensure that they are not abused, molested, or raped, and that their self-esteem remains healthy and intact. Unfortunately, as you know, many women are systematically abused and broken down psychologically. It is not within their capacities to fix this themselves without professional guidance.

Yes, this is why I added the later post about self-esteem, and trying to fix this via counselling or whatever means work. They target exactly those sort of people they know that won't report them.

 

[Shonx]

Using hysterical rape victim stories to try to make it clear to men that rape is harmful does not work, because most rapists would agree that rape is bad. They need to understand WHAT RAPE IS, since studies prove that most rapists don't even believe that what they have done counts as rape.

I did see the mencanstoprape campaign, and I think that could be very useful in education definitely. My understanding of rape is that it's ANY non-consensual sex and the way that it's redefined in date rape ("we were doing this act so I thought this would be ok") is quite wrong. The more I read on this, the more I think that people should just avoid all sex when drunk altogether. If men are so determined or too stupefied to understand it's not ok, then they shouldn't be there in the first place, but I think we probably agree on that point anyway.

Regarding the rape attitudes of men, that survey did say teenagers, and although I find the findings as repulsive as you, male attitudes to this do change with age. I was brought up to think that rape was always wrong, I'm fascinated to know where they get these attitudes from - fathers? media? pornography? peer group? I don't think even the "lad's mags" have incited people to rape (well not directly).

 

[nomadthethird]

I did see the mencanstoprape campaign, and I think that could be very useful in education definitely. My understanding of rape is that it's ANY non-consensual sex and the way that it's redefined in date rape ("we were doing this act so I thought this would be ok") is quite wrong. The more I read on this, the more I think that people should just avoid all sex when drunk altogether. If men are so determined or too stupefied to understand it's not ok, then they shouldn't be there in the first place, but I think we probably agree on that point anyway.

Regarding the rape attitudes of men, that survey did say teenagers, and although I find the findings as repulsive as you, male attitudes to this do change with age. I was brought up to think that rape was always wrong, I'm fascinated to know where they get these attitudes from - fathers? media? pornography? peer group? I don't think even the "lad's mags" have incited people to rape (well not directly).

I agree that people should be encouraged to report all rapes, but it's hard to blame them at the moment if they don't want to, given the treatment rape victims get by law enforcement and the incredulity of most juries no matter how much evidence there is against an accused rapist.

I also agree people should avoid sex while drunk (it usually sux anyway), but funnily enough most people seem to need to drink to work up the courage to get past all their hang ups in the first place! :slanted:

It's just going to take so much work to even begin to chip away at these problems...

Probably best to start at home/school and start early.

 

[nomadthethird]

Sorry for the massive number of posts on this... but it's something I think is very important for obvious reasons.

 

[Shonx]

This just makes me ill. You're trying to say that a woman who has most likely been physically abused by the same man who is raping her infant is wilfully overlooking the rape because her self-esteem is just so low?

Do you know anything about victim psychology?

Ok, we know paedophiles are predators. We know that paedophiles often target weak, needy women as a way of getting to their kids. Presumably if this woman had been spotted having problems as a youth and had undergone some sort of PTSD therapy, she may well not have ended up with this guy. I was using this example to show the level of denial when faced with irrefutable evidence to the contrary to express the degree of control exercised. I'm saying that a lot of the reasons she was with the guy in the first place have to do with her being vulnerable and easily manipulated.

 

[nomadthethird]

Ok, we know paedophiles are predators. We know that paedophiles often target weak, needy women as a way of getting to their kids. Presumably if this woman had been spotted having problems as a youth and had undergone some sort of PTSD therapy, she may well not have ended up with this guy. I was using this example to show the level of denial when faced with irrefutable evidence to the contrary to express the degree of control exercised. I'm saying that a lot of the reasons she was with the guy in the first place have to do with her being vulnerable and easily manipulated.

I don't know if I'd call them "weak" and "needy"--more "abused" and "traumatized" without any stable home environment in early childhood upon which to model their adult lives.

 

[Shonx]

As research has proven, it is this focus on victim behaviors that contributes to the social attitudes and norms that enable rapists to rape with very little statistical probability of being charged or successfully prosecuted for his crimes.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. Although you have said that the victim's drinking is not a component in them being raped as they could have been raped sober, and then said that the woman being drunk is less likely to be an effective witness and thus more attractive to the rapist. Is this not contradictory?

I think that it's clearly a problem with how rape cases are dealt with legally, it usually ends up in a "he said, she said" argument, and the presumption of innocence for the defendant has to be proved otherwise effectively. If there's no sign of struggle beyond any bruising inconsistent with normal sexual practises then there's little to prove that rape actually occurred apart from the victim's testimony.

One suggestion that I did read was to educate juries by ransacking various rape myths (the "she deserved it because she was flirting/drinking/was sexually promiscuous/dressed provocatively, etc) which often prejudice those considering the verdicts. It was also suggested that in rape cases that the innocence of the defendant would need to be proved, but I can see that having various unpleasant civil rights implications.

 

[Shonx]

I don't know if I'd call them "weak" and "needy"--more "abused" and "traumatized" without any stable home environment in early childhood upon which to model their adult lives.

Well yes, but I would say it's those that are neglected or abused in childhood may place far more emphasis on having someone to love and support them to make up for what was missing in their developmental years, and I think predators pick up on this and exploit it. So yeah, the weakness and the neediness develop from abuse and trauma.

 

[nomadthethird]

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with this. Although you have said that the victim's drinking is not a component in them being raped as they could have been raped sober, and then said that the woman being drunk is less likely to be an effective witness and thus more attractive to the rapist. Is this not contradictory?

I think that it's clearly a problem with how rape cases are dealt with legally, it usually ends up in a "he said, she said" argument, and the presumption of innocence for the defendant has to be proved otherwise effectively. If there's no sign of struggle beyond any bruising inconsistent with normal sexual practises then there's little to prove that rape actually occurred apart from the victim's testimony.

One suggestion that I did read was to educate juries by ransacking various rape myths (the "she deserved it because she was flirting/drinking/was sexually promiscuous/dressed provocatively, etc) which often prejudice those considering the verdicts. It was also suggested that in rape cases that the innocence of the defendant would need to be proved, but I can see that having various unpleasant civil rights implications.

But that's not what I said. I said that men often rape women who are the picture of female "liberation", if you will, who dress sexily if and when they feel like it, who go out to drink and have a good time, who have had several sexual partners in their lifetime--because the men know that juries will never, ever hold them responsible for their actions if they rape a pretty girl who drinks, smokes, and "dangles herself in front of them."

Most of these rapists are targeting their own girlfriends. Their wives. Their own sisters. An acquaintance they've had their eye on.

This is a different idea than "drunk women are especially vulnerable to rape"--which I've repeatedly debunked with statistics and hard facts.

No one ever said that rapists don't in rare cases rape strange women whom they've just followed out of a bars, just that this is by far the least likely scenario a woman faces, and focusing on a woman's drinking is a dangerous game.

 

[Shonx]

I also agree people should avoid sex while drunk (it usually sux anyway), but funnily enough most people seem to need to drink to work up the courage to get past all their hang ups in the first place! :slanted:

Yes it is pretty tragic that people need to get into that state.

Just out of interest, how do you think the portrayal of women in the media might affect the various notions of acceptable sexual practises to males? I'm talking more about the mainstream end than pornography (although admittedly there's a narrowing line between the two).

 

[nomadthethird]

Yes it is pretty tragic that people need to get into that state.

Just out of interest, how do you think the portrayal of women in the media might affect the various notions of acceptable sexual practises to males? I'm talking more about the mainstream end than pornography (although admittedly there's a narrowing line between the two).

Well, I do think that the sort of juvenile typical PG13 comedy flicks (that are viewed mainly by a lot of pre-teens and young teen boys) need to stop having so many frat party type scenes where the sex myth portrayed is that beautiful girls will spontaneously start an orgy or give into your sexual advances if you just get them drunk enough. I think starting a discussion of rape with this kind of media sex mythology, you might have a chance of lowering date rape incidence. (I do think date rape would be the easiest thing to tamp down, since some other types of rape are more pre-meditated and require sociopathic personality traits.)

Since Hollywood is unlikely to stop making this type of film, it might be good to show these scenes in health class or sex ed at even younger ages than they could now, and have guided student discussions about sexual boundaries and what might be wrong or inaccurate about the things they're seeing in the media. And it should really even start at home-- if these things come up on TV, parents just can't afford to be too embarrassed to discuss them with their kids. Too much of the information kids get about sex is from peers and the damn TV.

I remember once randomly seeing Loser on a flight and being somewhat impressed because it was the first frat comedy I've ever seen where (attempted) date rape was portrayed as something ugly and gross.

 

[waffle]

I'm not justifying her abuse at all. And for the umpteenth time I have to restate that abusers look for people they can dominate, preferably as easily as possible.

I know you're not attempting to justify the abuse. I'm suggesting that your assumptions - patriarchal, Oedipal - are ultimately part of the problem. It's not likely that abusers would seek out those they can't dominate, those in a more socially powerful position, is it? Wouldn't that make them, in your words, of 'low self-esteem', 'weak', victims of abusive 'emotional attachments'? You believe that the problems of sexual abuse can be somehow resolved without addressing/reforming the fundamental social structures that perpetuate it, but instead by 'empowering' the victims by demanding that they take 'responsibility' for their lives. The problem with this depoliticized approach is that, like the ads, it leads to the victims of abuse internalizing the abuse (they were abused because they were not sufficiently 'responsible', their behaviour was inappropriate, they didn't take the right precautions, etc) while the structural injustices remain, continue to be ignored.

She was told by her doctor that the abuse to her baby had caused the worst vaginal damage that he'd ever seen - she said if that was the case she would have noticed it when changing the nappy (???). She was diagnosed as having very low self-esteem by the psychologist and had made several suicide attempts previously. Like I said, it may not be the crucial factor, but it's definitely a contributory factor.

No, low self-esteem is a symptom, not a 'cause' of anything, a chronic, ideologically-driven confusion/substitution made by psychologists and psychiatrists everywhere.

From the New Statesman -

""The overwhelming majority of rape reports on the Met's files - 87 per cent - are made by women whose characteristics make them vulnerable. Most are known to the perpetrators: acquaintances, partners and ex-partners; they are young; they consume alcohol or drugs; they suffer from mental illness"

Mental illness! That old chestnut. But the rapists are a model of mental health?

"Furthermore, as long as men target women who have been drinking or young women under 18, there is a good chance that the police won't bother to interview or investigate, and the allegations won't appear "on the books"."

All this tells us is that the police are a part of the problem, are facilitating such rapists, being of a similar sexist mindset.

So basically they're easier and the police are less likely to take the story seriously.

Children are 'easier' to abuse too, being vulnerable, weak, etc. I suppose they're therefore unlikely to take stories of child abuse seriously either?

Unhealthy emotional attachments e.g. to an abusive partner as opposed to benign supportive relationships. Your confusion is wilful and pedantic clearly.

The matter, the distinction, isn't so transparent, unfortunately. I asked for clarification because what may appear to be 'benign supportive relationships' may actually be complicit in perpetuating 'unhealthy emotional attachments.' Empathizing with the victim ("Let me feel your pain"), without any consideration of one's own desires, one's own inscription into patriarchal structures and the Oedipal economy, can merely serve to perpetuate the status quo, or can make matters worse: for instance, the NHS 'public service' ad referred to above. I'm sure all of those involved in that campaign were genuine and well-intentioned, and fully 'empathized with the victims of rape', but their way of responding to the problem was self-defeating because such empathy was predicated both on the victim's own culpability and the narcissism of the NHS staff. Even many rapists have no difficulty empathizing with their victims, so rendering them even more powerless.