No Future for the GOP?

crackerjack

Well-known member
OK, it's certified now. Obama is actually worse than Bush, no ifs ands or buts. CASE CLOSED:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/08/olbermann/index.html

Un-fucking-believable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the lettres de cachet of the ancien regime couldn't have someone summarily executed.

But this has been standard practice for years, right? Do American citizens deserve special privileges wrt to assassination if they put themselves beyond the reach of American law?

(I'm not particularly defending assassination, which is a bit Wild West for a lil ol liberal like me, but drawing analogies with Bush's eavesdroppinng is a load of old fanny innit)
 

rumble

Well-known member
hell no it hasn't been standard practice! Since when did the president have the power to order the assassination of American citizens???
 

rumble

Well-known member
"drawing analogies with Bush's eavesdroppinng is a load of old fanny innit"

huh? It's like 10,000 times worse than George Bush eavesdropping, so in that sense I guess it is a load of old fanny comparison
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
hell no it hasn't been standard practice! Since when did the president have the power to order the assassination of American citizens???

I mean it's been standard practice to assassinate their foreign enemies - why should US citizens have special privileges if they put themselves beyond American law?
 

vimothy

yurp
The NYT reports that the Obama Administration has authorized the targeted killing of an American citizen, the radical Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, The article notes the international law justification for his killing: he is an avowed member of Al Qaeda actively engaged in hostilities against the U.S. Under either the law of armed conflict or the general law of self-defense, the Administration probably has the legal authority to kill him. (Unless international human rights law applies, but the administration plainly believes this law does not apply).

But, as I noted here a few months ago, this international law analysis does not answer questions about al-Awlaki’s constitutional rights. Under U.S. Supreme Court precedents, U.S. citizens often can invoke constitutional rights against the U.S. government, even when they are abroad. (See Reid v. Covert). Maybe this is a situation where granting constitutional protections would be, as Justice Harlan suggested, “impracticable and anomalous.” It certainly seems that way, and I assume the Obama Administration has concluded that the Constitution does not apply. Alternatively, the Constitution might apply, and the theory is simply that al-Awlaki’s rights substantive and procedural Due Process rights are not being violated. This seems a harder argument to make, and it would be fascinating to see someone (like Harold Koh again?) make it.

http://opiniojuris.org/2010/04/07/t...ident-obamas-targeted-killing-of-us-citizens/
 
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rumble

Well-known member
oh yeah, obv. I don't support assassinating anyone without an explicit declaration of war (and even then...). That's a war crime or murder IMO even though the CIA obviously does it. So yeah there is a double standard there, but even the assassination of enemy foreign politicians was banned by Ford in 1975, and assassinating US citizens without trial is just insane.
 

rumble

Well-known member
as far as I know Bush never allowed this. The worst he did was illegal detention and not respecting habeas corpus. This is way way beyond that.

I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but Greenwald is (the first link I posted) and if he thinks that it is an abomination then I don't doubt it.
 

vimothy

yurp
As I understand it, there is an international law / LOAC argument for and a constitutional law argument against.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
As I understand it, there is an international law / LOAC argument for and a constitutional law argument against.

that seems to be the gist of your link - would be interestiing to see these goddamn constitutional law liberals pitched against the crusading frontier justice international lawyers ;)
 

rumble

Well-known member
The constitution is ALWAYS supreme to international law and takes precedence, especially if you happen to be the President.

Scottdisco, I think this might be what you are referring to:

"At the time, The Washington Post's Dana Priest had noted deep in a long article that Obama had continued Bush's policy (which Bush never actually implemented) of having the Joint Chiefs of Staff compile "hit lists" of Americans"

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/assassinations/index.html
 

rumble

Well-known member
From that article:

"When Obama was seeking the Democratic nomination, the Constitutional Law Scholar answered a questionnaire about executive power distributed by The Boston Globe's Charlie Savage, and this was one of his answers:

5. Does the Constitution permit a president to detain US citizens without charges as unlawful enemy combatants?

[Obama]: No. I reject the Bush Administration's claim that the President has plenary authority under the Constitution to detain U.S. citizens without charges as unlawful enemy combatants."

But it's OK to kill them? OMFG this is insanity.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
The constitution is ALWAYS supreme to international law and takes precedence, especially if you happen to be the President.

Scottdisco, I think this might be what you are referring to:

"At the time, The Washington Post's Dana Priest had noted deep in a long article that Obama had continued Bush's policy (which Bush never actually implemented) of having the Joint Chiefs of Staff compile "hit lists" of Americans"

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/07/assassinations/index.html

yeah, it's kinda semantics/ six of one, half dozen the other.

i read in today's London Times that

The policy of targeted killings is controversial. President Ford issued an order in 1976 banning political assassinations. Yet Congress approved the use of force against al-Qaeda after the September 11 attacks. People on the hit list are deemed to be military enemies of the US and not subject to Mr Ford’s ban.

In February Admiral Dennis Blair, Mr Obama’s intelligence chief, told Congress: “If we think direct action will involve killing an American, we get specific permission to do that.” He did not name Mr al-Awlaki as a target.

here

obviously i am just making observations here but it seems the nationality is the added juice here (i realise i sound blase discussing the issue in such stark terms, but, it is what it is). Dubya would have done this to a fellow American if need be, no doubt.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
obviously i am just making observations here but it seems the nationality is the added juice here (i realise i sound blase discussing the issue in such stark terms, but, it is what it is). Dubya would have done this to a fellow American if need be, no doubt.

right, exactly what i'm getting at
 

rumble

Well-known member
Well, the Bush policies were bad too, and I don't doubt that he would have done this too if he thought he could get away with it, but the key word in that Times piece is "unprecedented".

"The Obama Administration has taken the unprecedented step of authorising the killing of a US citizen"

Bush never went this far.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
Well, the Bush policies were bad too, and I don't doubt that he would have done this too if he thought he could get away with it, but the key word in that Times piece is "unprecedented".

"The Obama Administration has taken the unprecedented step of authorising the killing of a US citizen"

Bush never went this far.

you'll find no argument from me on that fact.
 
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