Metal Machine Music

[nomadthethird]

actually white people go to jail for drugs all the time. it's called crystal meth, it's a goddamn epidemic in big chunks of the western U.S. but those white people mostly aren't middle-class suburbanites so I guess they don't really fit into your narrative.



seriously, what the hell are you talking about? first that's a total strawman b/c no claimed that the themes in hip hop are imaginary. second despite the Chuck D quote rappers aren't reporters they're artists making art based on reality. one of the greatest things about hip hop is the way that the traditional Ziggy Stardust pop star alterego intersects with, as you put it, "real social issues". Biggie was of course keenly aware of this, sure he sold drugs, was a misogynist etc. but he was also a remarkbly shrewd self-promoter conscious at all times of promoting a personal mythology based on a mix of fact & fiction. that's what rap is. see also; Tupac (the ultimate fake thug), N.W.A, UGK, etc

Yes, white people go to jail if they DO SOMETHING STUPID, as I said, like traffic drugs, commit robbery, or hurt others in drug-related incidents. Usually the first three or four possession charges, especially for meth, result in a suspended sentence and a mandatory stint in state-run rehab. A black person who is charged with the same offense as a white person is much more likely to be convicted and do prison time, for reasons I'm sure you are already well-aware of as an American...

Yes, Biggie was a shrewd self-promoter, and a deeply conflicted, intelligent, person whose music I think was excellent. I never once said Biggie didn't realize that drugs were a real social issue--in fact, my entire point was that hip-hop artists HIGHLIGHT the social issues common in the inner-city for young black men.

The excess bravado and dissing is a hip-hop trope, it's been there from day one. That does not mean many of these artists (including the ones you mentioned) did not grow up witnessing firsthand how difficult life is in certain areas for certain economic reasons.

My point was that I'm sick of hearing from people who don't live in the U.S. that hip-hop is bad because it plays with themes like Biggie's music does. It happens a lot everywhere but I've seen it on here to.

 

[nomadthethird]

is this not what art is anyway? whether music, writing, visual, etc. the art that truly moves a person, no matter the genre, isn't it the artist's alterego/fictional construct/perspective intersecting with reality/social issues/society/the current world dynamic (whether that "world" is a city block, or a country, or beyond).

of course, there are just as many, if not more, "artists" who only play at being something, or are just regurgitating something worthy of a marketing campaign.

My point is that I think it's deeply offensive to say that it's "fake" to talk about drug dealing, that anyone who does is just making it up to sound "hard"--I have heard that countless times on here.

It's just a cultural difference. Look at the language used in the UK, they call thugs "rudeboys", as if their major flaw is simply transgressing some stupid uptight social code.

In my mind, the reason I bring any of this up has nothing to do with being "hard" (although, yes, when you grow up in certain situations, it is a survival mechanism to talk tough and act aggressive), and everything to do with a large set of intractable socio-economic problems in the U.S. being very important to me.

As if rock-and-roll is entirely void of self-mythologizing artists? There's something considered more "inauthentic" about hip-hop among some white people and that bothers me, yes it does. (I'm not talking about people who are participating in this discussion necessarily, when I'm describing this type of person. But they do exist, especially online, and if I read one more stupid racist thing on a blog or foreign paper about hip-hop written by a non-American who clearly doesn't understand or doesn't want to I'm really going to lose it... )

 

[nomadthethird]

As ridiculous as your comment was about British people not knowing what a crack dealer is, you might forget that I don't live in Britain.

I never said that, btw. I said that many British people act as if it's only ever a big con when someone like BIG talks about dealing crack, like nobody really does move drugs on a large scale in the world, like it's something people only do or talk about to "sound hard" when it's just a cold hard reality here. Nobody cares. Nobody thinks anybody's hard. Some people talk about it because they resent having to grow up in socio-economic milieu that encourages and promotes drug dealing and drug use. Especially when there's no fucking excuse for shoving a large segment of our population and then shuttling them directly to prison for using the only possible financial leverage they have access to in their lives.

 

[petergunn]

It's just a cultural difference. Look at the language used in the UK, they call thugs "rudeboys", as if their major flaw is simply transgressing some stupid uptight social code.

)

 

[nomadthethird]

hahahaha

 

[nomadthethird]

Hoodies are the ones responsible for the savage stabbing spree last year. Death toll: 13.

 

[littlebird]

As if rock-and-roll is entirely void of self-mythologizing artists? There's something considered more "inauthentic" about hip-hop among some white people and that bothers me, yes it does. (I'm not talking about people who are participating in this discussion necessarily, when I'm describing this type of person. But they do exist, especially online, and if I read one more stupid racist thing on a blog or foreign paper about hip-hop written by a non-American who clearly doesn't understand or doesn't want to I'm really going to lose it... )

i get your point, thank you for the clarification, though. and yes, i've read similar things on blogs, and especially other music forums/communities i've frequented/been a part of. as an American, albeit from the opposite coast as you are, i do hear your point.

not that you needed me to affirm any of what you said.

i am curious, though, the racist things you mention reading online and in papers about hip-hop, have they all been from sources outside of the US/written by non-Americans? i ask because i've witnessed people from the US saying that same kind of thing in regards to some hip-hop artists, and the genre in general. though i would hasten to say they were just as removed, if not more, from understanding the social implications and backgrounds being expressed due to their lifestyles, and/or social status (coming from "good families", suburbon neighborhoods, privilage...)

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Yes, white people go to jail if they DO SOMETHING STUPID...A black person who is charged with the same offense as a white person is much more likely to be convicted and do prison time, for reasons I'm sure you are already well-aware of as an American...

generally, yes, especially once they've been caught. Rockefeller Laws (& everything of that ilk), plus all the social factors, etc. my point was that a lot of the crimes (those STUPID things that STUPID white people do) are also caused/exacerbated by the same economic factors that affect people of color. it's just more complex than you were making it out to be

Yes, Biggie was a shrewd self-promoter...
The excess bravado and dissing is a hip-hop trope, it's been there from day one. That does not mean many of these artists (including the ones you mentioned) did not grow up witnessing firsthand how difficult life is in certain areas for certain economic reasons.

wait, what? I'm not sure where I said they didn't witness any of the things they talked about. the difference is between reporting facts & embellishing them to make art, which is what rappers do.

My point was that I'm sick of hearing from people who don't live in the U.S. that hip-hop is bad because it plays with themes like Biggie's music does. It happens a lot everywhere but I've seen it on here to.

can you point to any examples? I'm just having a hard time understanding your hosility. who are these people criticizing hip hop, besides scaremongering politicians or C. Dolores Tucker types? hip hop won, it's been winning for a long time, its complacency in victory is a big reason why so much of it sucks now.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

My point is that I think it's deeply offensive to say that it's "fake" to talk about drug dealing, that anyone who does is just making it up to sound "hard"--I have heard that countless times on here.

when though? can you point to any example of a blanket statement where someone said that all rappers who talk about selling drugs are "making it up" (itself a problematical phrase given, again, the blurring of the fact/fiction line)?

It's just a cultural difference. Look at the language used in the UK, they call thugs "rudeboys", as if their major flaw is simply transgressing some stupid uptight social code.

"rudeboy" is a Jamaican term actually.

As if rock-and-roll is entirely void of self-mythologizing artists? There's something considered more "inauthentic" about hip-hop among some white people and that bothers me, yes it does. (I'm not talking about people who are participating in this discussion necessarily, when I'm describing this type of person. But they do exist, especially online, and if I read one more stupid racist thing on a blog or foreign paper about hip-hop written by a non-American who clearly doesn't understand or doesn't want to I'm really going to lose it... )

yeah but shouldn't you then be complaining to or about the people who actually do this? not that Dissensus is sacrosanct but really there must be a million better targets for your frustrations. sure it's bullshit that Johnny Cash make up songs about shooting people but rappers can't but I think most people on Dissensus are already well aware of that.

 

[michael]

can you point to any examples? I'm just having a hard time understanding your hosility. who are these people criticizing hip hop, besides scaremongering politicians or C. Dolores Tucker types? hip hop won, it's been winning for a long time, its complacency in victory is a big reason why so much of it sucks now.

Just for a bit of background, one of the two founders of this forum, k-punk, slagged off hip-hop on here, saying that people's attitudes with regards to its lyrical themes showed they were patronising minorities... that the things black people put to music would never be condoned if they came from members of the majority. This may be a crude paraphrase, but that's the guts.

Can't remember if nomad in her first incarnation was on here before k-punk quit. No idea if that's any part of what she's reacting against.

Quite a funny forum, where both of its founders have left...

 

[droid]

British people act like drugs are this big bad evil thing. And sure, they can be, but...

Don't mention drugs on the internet! Gasp.

Don't mention drugs in your songs--if you do, you're probably making it up or "exaggerating"...

I say some people here, mostly British people, get TRES UNCOMFORTABLE when the subject comes up. It's very obvious.

Given the qualification (not that Ive seen the evidence to support it) isn't this the very definition of a ridiculous generalisation?

Regarding drug use - no-one would deny that it is a huge problem in major US cities, as it is in many South American cities, but anyone who has ever been to Glasgow could tell you that British cities also have major problems with drugs, especially heroin, where usage may be higher (% wise) than the US.

Limited information is available concerning trends in heroin use by young people; however, a 1999 United Nations report summarizes various studies conducted in countries around the world between 1990 and 1997 and provides an indication of use worldwide. (It is important to note that samples and survey methods differ, and comparisons between countries should be made with great caution.) According to the report, the highest rate of heroin use among youth is in Europe. In Denmark, Greece, Ireland and Italy, 2 per cent of youth (age 15-16) report having used heroin at lease once in their lives. The report also states that some countries in Western Europe are experiencing an increase in heroin smoking. Heroin injection increased during the 1990s in Eastern Europe and this trend has also touched youth. Other figures provided by the report include 1.4 per cent of youth age 14-24 in Australia and 1.2 per cent of youth age 13-22 in the United States have used heroin. A more recent survey conducted in 2002 in the United States by the National Institute on Drug Abuse reports that 1.8 per cent of students in grade 10 (ages 15-16) have used heroin at least once.

it's just a cultural difference. Look at the language used in the UK, they call thugs "rudeboys", as if their major flaw is simply transgressing some stupid uptight social code.

As EDIT Padriag EDIT pointed out, this is a Jamaican thing. Those guys who brought drug related violence and brutality to new heights in the 80s and early 90s in NY were rudeboys...

 

[scottdisco]

yes IIRC k-punk - at least at one stage although i've not searched his archives - has had some particular views on rap.

can i thank padraig (u.s.) for correcting Nomad re the term "rudeboy"?

thanks.

also, Nomad, this of yours makes me a little uneasy:

Hoodies are the ones responsible for the savage stabbing spree last year. Death toll: 13.

i may be inferring incorrectly here, in which case i apologise, but it's almost like you're minimising here (for reasons which i understand, but still).
as for British people, don't tar many people with whoever you know.
and thank you for the reminders of structural injustices in the US etc.

i can't remember which music journo it was, i think Reynolds actually, running with something from Frere-Jones, but something whatever said interested me

bars, diction, cadence, flow . so much to marvel att really . .. to this day one of the most influential . ,, . gimme da loot and who shot ya and joints like that are jus ridiclous in terms of cadence and line by line prosody, syncopation, authority, u know, ; and he had a way of telling a story . ima just pointing to obv things , but listen to his VOICE / rhythm , shit is off teh hookx

Reynolds, IIRC, wanted to get into a deep discussion of 'flow' and really unpick the term. (he's quite the parser.)

something about 'flow' being mentioned and that being the end of it in some discussions. (i'm not having a pop whatever, as you go on to get quite technical anyway, and i have not the knowledge to join in on any serious rap discussion as it is, that's Luka's bag for e.g. just your post made me half-remember that.)

oh, Droid too!

hi Droid

 

[vimothy]

And heroin is not simply a problem confined to large cities -- as anyone who's ever been to Wales can probably tell you. I mean, why else would you listen to the Stereophonics?

 

[scottdisco]

And heroin is not simply a problem confined to large cities -- as anyone who's ever been to Wales can probably tell you. I mean, why else would you listen to the Stereophonics?

i live in a 'phonics house with 'phonics wallpaper and 'phonics loo roll and have egg and chips for tea with Kelly and the drummer with the mad hair on a Friday afternoon so what of that Vim?

 

[vimothy]

Well, you know, I just think it proves Nomad's point that British people shouldn't ever do drugs.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Just for a bit of background, one of the two founders of this forum, k-punk, slagged off hip-hop on here, saying that people's attitudes with regards to its lyrical themes showed they were patronising minorities... that the things black people put to music would never be condoned if they came from members of the majority. This may be a crude paraphrase, but that's the guts.

thanks for the clarification I was totally unaware of that. still I stick by my point, I imagine that there were a wealth of responses to k-punk's, ah, views?

and i know you're just paraphrasing but cripes that argument is nonsense if i ever heard it. as if singers of all races since people started putting words to music haven't been singing about sex & violence in one form or another. it's like the evil twin of that argument that white people only pay attention to black music if it's politically conscious. well damned either way i guess.

 

[Sick Boy]

My point is that I think it's deeply offensive to say that it's "fake" to talk about drug dealing, that anyone who does is just making it up to sound "hard"--I have heard that countless times on here.

No one said that. Are you ok?

 

[Mr. Tea]

No one said that. Are you ok?

I think nomad is falsely accusing British people of falsely accusing American rappers of falsely talking about drugs, crime and so on in order to sound hard, in order to sound hard.

So to speak.

 

[mms]

My country is harder than your country.

our economy is worse than your economy
blah blah

 

[vimothy]

Poseur