Naomi Klein - The Shock Doctrine

[josef k.]

[in a small, frightened voice] Nobody?

 

[vimothy]

"The rails are to the thread what..."

 

[nomadthethird]

Boredzor.

 

[josef k.]

"The rails are to the thread what..."

...the dead are to the living.

 

[vimothy]

Thread or dead

Of course I can't speak for Nomad, but I feel confident that I can say, on her behalf, that this was a beautiful moment -- true communion.

Anyway, the issue as I see it is not to tell those speaking on behalf of the voiceless to stop speaking, but not to uncritically accept their claims of representation. The whys and wherefores of that speech are important.

 

[nomadthethird]

Of course I can't speak for Nomad, but I feel confident that I can say, on her behalf, that this was a beautiful moment -- true communion.

Anyway, the issue as I see it is not to tell those speaking on behalf of the voiceless to stop speaking, but not to uncritically accept their claims of representation. The whys and wherefores of that speech are important.

Yeah, because so many people take it uncritically.

That's probably why there haven't ever been any culture wars anywhere.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"The rails are to the thread what..."

...the dead are to the living.

nah mate have you ever been inside a trainyard, seen a freight train getting built? those things are alive man. perhaps that's just an American thing tho. funnily enough cos they were so tied to all this heavy industry that's no longer here freight trains tend to run through all these dying, forgotten pieces of America, coal country in W. VA & western Maryland & southern Pennsylvania, a million nowhere towns in the Midwest with grain silos, the Rust Belt (Buffalo, Scranton, Cleveland, Toledo). prime American right there.

 

[josef k.]

Yeah, because so many people take it uncritically.

That's probably why there haven't ever been any culture wars anywhere.

But where is the real war? Which is the real war. Who are the real sides?

 

[vimothy]

Foiled again!

 

[nomadthethird]

Anyone who can't see the difference between someone saying "this is what x wants, feels, thinks" and "this is what x is entitled to under the law, and under our government" is a petty, small-minded dickweed.

 

[josef k.]

nah mate have you ever been inside a trainyard, seen a freight train getting built? those things are alive man. perhaps that's just an American thing tho. funnily enough cos they were so tied to all this heavy industry that's no longer here freight trains tend to run through all these dying, forgotten pieces of America, coal country in W. VA & western Maryland & southern Pennsylvania, a million nowhere towns in the Midwest with grain silos, the Rust Belt (Buffalo, Scranton, Cleveland, Toledo). prime American right there.

"The rails are to the thread what..."

...men are to women.

 

[nomadthethird]

nah mate have you ever been inside a trainyard, seen a freight train getting built? those things are alive man. perhaps that's just an American thing tho. funnily enough cos they were so tied to all this heavy industry that's no longer here freight trains tend to run through all these dying, forgotten pieces of America, coal country in W. VA & western Maryland & southern Pennsylvania, a million nowhere towns in the Midwest with grain silos, the Rust Belt (Buffalo, Scranton, Cleveland, Toledo). prime American right there.

They definitely wouldn't know anything about that.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Anyway, the issue as I see it is not to tell those speaking on behalf of the voiceless to stop speaking, but not to uncritically accept their claims of representation. The whys and wherefores of that speech are important.

Yeah, because so many people take it uncritically.

That's probably why there haven't ever been any culture wars anywhere.

I dunno Nomad I'm gonna have to go with Vimothy here, I thought that was a pretty fair point. how are the culture wars about anyone taking issue with claims of representation? unless you mean the commentators of the culture wars are guilty of false representation, which I mean, I guess, I dunno that's a muddled argument tho. perhaps you could explain?

 

[nomadthethird]

I dunno Nomad I'm gonna have to go with Vimothy here, I thought that was a pretty fair point. how are the culture wars about anyone taking issue with claims of representation? unless you mean the commentators of the culture wars are guilty of false representation, which I mean, I guess, I dunno that's a muddled argument tho. perhaps you could explain?

Go ahead and "go with Vimothy on this one"...

If you really think that nobody in the U.S. is critical of those who speak up for minority groups, or that social justice activism is unproblematic, then you're obviously kind of either delusional, conservative, or both and it's not worth discussing.

If you don't know that there haven't been culture wars over who gets to speak up for whom in this culture, then I don't know, maybe we live in different Americas.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

They definitely wouldn't know anything about that.

not in a smug way at all, but really most Americans don't either. it's a pretty underground (sub)culture, one of the most underground that I know about actually, still largely word of mouth. plus all the migrants who don't do it by choice of course but that's a different ting. not to be weird but when I go home later I could post some pictures if anyone's interested in seeing a weird, unique piece of American culture.

 

[nomadthethird]

not in a smug way at all, but really most Americans don't either. it's a pretty underground (sub)culture, one of the most underground that I know about actually, still largely word of mouth. plus all the migrants who don't do it by choice of course but that's a different ting. not to be weird but when I go home later I could post some pictures if anyone's interested in seeing a weird, unique piece of American culture.

make a new thread I like trains

 

[vimothy]

Go ahead and "go with Vimothy on this one"...

It's already rather sticky in here -- I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Go ahead and "go with Vimothy on this one"...

If you really think that nobody in the U.S. is critical of those who speak up for minority groups, or that social justice activism is unproblematic, then you're obviously kind of either delusional, conservative, or both and it's not worth discussing.

If you don't know that there haven't been culture wars over who gets to speak up for whom in this culture, then I don't know, maybe we live in different Americas.

sure alright but we're talking about 2 different kinds of critical here - 1) the kind of conservative d-bags that would attack activists/ism & 2) a healthy skepticism for anyone claiming to represent anyone else. I just thinkg you're reading of the culture wars, which is surely a broad topic, is being simplified to fit your argument.

I appreciate the charges of delusion & conservatism, by the by.

 

[josef k.]

"make a new thread I like trains"

Excellent suggestion!

also - the culture wars were not a war about representation. it was a war between representations.

EDIT: Or was it both?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

It's already rather sticky in here -- I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

nah you're joking, like.