Joyce vs Rand, Plato vs. Aristotle, Elites vs. People, Kramer vs. Kramer

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
I recently came across this piece in my travels:

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3251

A sample:

**

Novel A:

He kissed the plump mellow yellow smellow melons of her rump, on each plump melonous hemisphere, in their mellow yellow furrow, with obscure prolonged provocative melonsmellonous osculation.

The visible signs of postsatisfaction?

A silent contemplation: a tentative velation: a gradual abasement: a solicitous aversion: a proximate erection.

Novel B:

She sat listening to the music. It was a symphony of triumph. The notes flowed up, they spoke of rising and they were the rising itself, they were the essence and the form of upward motion, they seemed to embody every human act and thought that had ascent as its motive. It was a sunburst of sound, breaking out of hiding and spreading open. It had the freedom of release and the tension of purpose. It swept space clean, and left nothing but the joy of an unobstructed effort. Only a faint echo within the sounds spoke of that from which the music had escaped, but spoke in laughing astonishment at the discovery that there was no ugliness or pain, and there never had had to be. It was the song of an immense deliverance.

Clearly, one of these novels is a stylistic masterpiece, and the other is trash. The fighting is over which is which.

Novel A is James Joyce's Ulysses, named best by a panel of "experts" at the Modern Library division of Random House.

Novel B is Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, named best by the "unenlightened masses" who voted online in an Internet poll also conducted by Modern Library. Atlas Shrugged is leading by an even wider margin.)

The culture wars, correctly conceived, actually reflects the clash between the intellectual establishment and the American people.

**

Provocative!
 

vimothy

yurp
Or do they? Red State, Blue State approaches the idea that poor America votes Republican while rich America votes Democrat with a cudgel and does bloody violence to it. It's relevant here, I think, if the culture war has anything to do with politics.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Well, isolating any small passage from Ulysses can work against it, blind like that. Then again, maybe people are generally too stupid and uncultured to grasp and enjoy the book these days.

Atlas Shrugged, of all things!
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
but this article's from 10 yrs ago anyway? & the guy who wrote it is a nutty Objectivist (with a PHD in freaking philosophy from Columbia - clearly not a member of the "intellectual establishment":rolleyes:) so of course he's gonna big up Ayn Rand.

Or do they? Red State, Blue State approaches the idea that poor America votes Republican while rich America votes Democrat with a cudgel and does bloody violence to it.

^^tho I don't even know how many ppl believed in that myth in the first place.
 

vimothy

yurp
Well, there have certainly been some influential commentators pushing it in recent years ("What's the matter with Kansas", David Brooks, and so on).
 

swears

preppy-kei
Ayn Rand is fucking creepy. Joyce is hilarious.

Capitalism magazine? Why does that title make me laugh? I'm picturing some fat old guy in a top hap chewing on a huge cigar reading it now... hehehe
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
They linked to it via Bookforum... I also like the magazine title. It makes me thing of other good titles for magazines.

For example "Imperialism!" Or "Patriarchy Today" or "Phallogocentric World."

But I do think it's interesting that the popular vote sides heavily with Ayn Rand. And she has been hugely politically influential. And the passage the guy cites (the only passage of Rand which I've ever read) doesn't necessarily strike me as bad...

But to be honest, the Plato vs Aristotle idea interests me more.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
I read a study once that Kramer vs Kramer was the most perfectly written film script ever; and also that an film audience is at its most emotionally vulnerable at 3/4 way through the duration of the film. I got the film on video and at exactly 3/4 of the way through it, Streep bursts into tears. It was quite creepy. I'm not sure that makes Robert Benton better than James Joyce, but certainly puts up a case for Kramer vs Rand.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Well, there have certainly been some influential commentators pushing it in recent years ("What's the matter with Kansas", David Brooks, and so on).

no this is true - I just think it's much more of a self-perpetuating media creation than anything else. the kind of thing commentators use to sell books or get airtime on CNN or MSNBC or whatever. not the kind of thing a lot of ppl actually believe in. the kinds of conservative intellectuals who excoriate the "intellectual establishment" are, I would argue, rather ironically just as isolated from the "American people" as, you know, the Pauline Kaels of the world or whatever.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
"Phallogocentric World."

genius:p.

"But I do think it's interesting that the popular vote sides heavily with Ayn Rand. And she has been hugely politically influential. And the passage the guy cites (the only passage of Rand which I've ever read) doesn't necessarily strike me as bad...

nah she's pants. this is the infamous, wonderfully bitchy takedown of Atlas Shrugged by Whittaker Chambers (a rather despiccable character himself). the $ quote I reckon:

You may fool some adults; you can't fool little boys and girls with such stuff — not for long.

& it's true that she's been influential - most famously with Greenspan of course - & not for the better. keep in mind too this is the same country that produced Scientology, Lyndon LaRouche, etc etc

tho sorry to get away from Aristotle & Plato mate...surely a more worthy topic...
 
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josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Lyndon LaRouche - now there's a fascinating character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche

Whittaker Chambers seems quite interesting too. He looks great!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittaker_Chambers

Aside from Greenspan, Ayn Rand was also a favourite of my former fellow shelf-stacker in London, an avant-garde music loving Polish guy with a certain hatred towards socialism. This may have been the appeal. I think Mr. Chamber's point is quite good:

"It is the more persuasive, in some quarters, because the author deals wholly in the blackest blacks and the whitest whites. In this fiction everything, everybody, is either all good or all bad, without any of those intermediate shades which, in life, complicate reality and perplex the eye that seeks to probe it truly. This kind of simplifying pattern, of course, gives charm to most primitive storyknown as: The War between the Children of Light and the Children of Darkness. In modern dress, it is a class war. Both sides to it are caricatures.

The Children of Light are largely operatic caricatures... . The Children of Darkness are caricatures, too; and they are really oozy. But at least they are caricatures of something identifiable. Their archetypes are Left-Liberals, New Dealers, Welfare Statists, One Worlders, or, at any rate, such ogreish semblances of these as may stalk the nightmares of those who think little about people as people, but tend to think a great deal in labels and effigies. (And neither Right nor Left, be it noted in passing, has a monopoly of such dreamers, though the horrors in their nightmares wear radically different masks and labels.)"
 
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Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
this Ayn Rand sounds like a compelling figure: "Ayn Rand was born in a dictatorial hell hole where she was forced into hard labour and everything was bad. Initially, she believed that this was as things should be. However, one day, in a lucent flash of enlightenment, she discovered two profound philosophical truths: "A is A", and "2 + 2 = 4". This epiphany gave her the power to break the chains of oppression and escape to America. There, she began working on her philosophy of Objectivism, which she developed from first principals, and totally did not just crib from Nietzsche.[1] Rand spent 50 years and tens of thousands of pages of writing, developing and explaining her philosophy of Objectivism. The principles of Objectivism are as follows: Everyone should act like greedy, selfish assholes. That's it, I just saved you a lot of time." http://www.wikiality.com/Ayn_Rand
 

Agent

dgaf ngaf cgaf
"The culture wars, correctly conceived, actually reflects the clash between the intellectual establishment and the American people."

that's one of the lamest things i've ever heard.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Godzilla vs. Mothra...

Alien vs. Predator...

Spy vs. Spy...

Nietzsche contra Wagner...

Pattern Against User...
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
I like that wikiality thing. I also like that Telemachus Sneezed parody in Illuminatus but I don't really have anything worthwhile to add I'm afraid.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I'm surprised, quite frankly, that Chambers and LaRouche are news to you.

Chambers is a big part of the Cold War story; LaRouche is a famous far-left/far-right crank.

As far as Chambers goes, if you can't face reading Witness, this biog is very good.
 
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