STN
sou'wester
but isn't he in them (wakeford in dij, i mean)?
Industrial Music
- Thread starter Client Eastwood
- Start date
but isn't he in them (wakeford in dij, i mean)?
john eden
male pale and stale
Yes Wakeford and Doug Pearce started off in Crisis (who were a punk band which did lots of gigs for the anti-nazi league) and then formed Death In June.
Wakeford was booted out by Pearce when his involvement with the NF became public. It's a whole bunch of people who appear on each other's records and onstage together... Pearce seems pretty clever at playing the ambiguity card.
Also, Stewart Home's toilet jokes aside, it became clear that Wakeford / Dave Tibet are associating and working with some seriously dodgy loons. I suppose one consolation is that most of these morons won't ever come to command the political clout they dream about. I'm not sure what strategy's best - confrontation, ridicule or ignoring them completely.
This is one thing that has always puzzled me - where was it ever going to lead to? And when are we talking about - what about links with contemporary fascism in teh UK? Are there any?
john eden
male pale and stale
Well there is an elitist slant running though a lot of it, so they were never really going to be up for associating with electoralism. I guess creating a subculture which can then influence the mainstream would be one interpretation.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
One thing that's struck me - and maybe this is a commonly discussed idea in industrial circles, but if it is I haven't heard it - is that surely the central irony of a group like TG, who were consciously making "industrial music for industrial people", is that they were making it in the milieu of an essentially post-industrial society? I mean, I guess there were still a few mines open and whatnot, but heavy manufacturing was on its last legs in Britain by the late '70s, wasn't it? Throbbing Gristle would almost have made more sense in the context of Britain in the 1870s. Which is interesting when you consider the allegedly soul-crushing nature of life in an industrial society...probably not half as soul-crushing (albeit far more materially comfortable - let's not romanticise the past here) as the late-20th-century alternatives in many parts of the country, viz. lifelong unemployment or menial service-sector work. It's probably significant that call centres and supermarkets do not generally have their own marching bands.
Even the dark Satanic mills must have had a kind of Mephistophelean grandeur about them - shopping centres, not so much. Tesco Disco, indeed.
Even the dark Satanic mills must have had a kind of Mephistophelean grandeur about them - shopping centres, not so much. Tesco Disco, indeed.
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In terms of current day BNP /C18 - probably very little. But then, the BNP is pushing 'Joey Smith' (think a racist, pseudo-moralistic Just Jack, but musically and vocally worse) and C18 are so dependent on money they're concentrating on the real sellers, ie - endless Ian Stuart / No Remorse CD reissues, a crop of bands I've gladly never heard of / forgotten the name of, etc.
I'll be honest - it's leading nowhere, which is maybe why we should forget it. How many people do you know, in your day-to-day life, who are actually aware of the term 'neo-folk' anyway? It's so removed from popular culture, it might as well be lost chunks of the Old Testament. This was always the contradiction I had - I liked the music personally, but almost everyone I was friendly with thought it was rubbish, just one of my 'quirky' tastes. TG and SPK mean zilch to most of my friends, and I wouldn't even bother trying to inflict either group on them.
At least Test Dept and Nocturnal Emissions (both possibly the most blatantly 'left' of industrial bands) incorporated elements like dub, hip hop, etc and were happy to cross over into unchartered(for 'industrial') territories - miners' strike benefits, WOMAD, etc, where they at least had the chance to connect with others outside of a prescribed 'scene'. Plus, they left us some fucking great albums.
Again, a problem I had was precisely the ambiguity of some of the other groups - it's all well shoving swastikas and corpses in peoples' faces, but if you're not prepared to link it to some suggestion of how you might possibly take the ideas and run with them in a wider social context, what's the point? You might as well just listen to Slayer or watch horror films. SPK have a reputation for producing films of autopsies and smashed up cadavers, but these were accompanied by juxtaposed pics of glamour models, medical and psychiatric reports, musings on the nature of social control, manifestos which may have been crude and overly idealistic (and which you could disagree with) or whatever, but at least weren't just focusing on a 1-D xerox of atrocity for its own sake - or, as that guy said earlier in the thread, "uniform fetishism".
But, if people really enjoy that, that's up to them, I'm not pissing on their parade. Personally, I just got bored with the unfocused nihilism. Maybe hardcore fans of extremism are actually the most 'shockable' people of all?
john eden
male pale and stale
It is blatantly a bit of a sideshow, I agree. For my part it pisses me off because I have fond memories of a lot of this stuff and think it set my down some interesting pathways.
So it was a complete pisser when one part of "the scene" became dominated by all this right wing crap. I feel a little bit paternalistic about it all - when I was 16 I sucked up all this rag bag of information I'd gleaned from fanzines and record sleeves and it definitely influenced me.
So I feel a duty to put stuff out there which criticises the crypto (and not so crypto) fascism. There were people who were into this stuff who were mates who got drawn in to all that, started coming out with this ubermensch racist shite.
I think ignoring it is an option which the vast majority of the population have consciously or unconsciously taken on board. It is usually really embarassing when anti-fascists who aren't conversant with the nuances of the music/ideas try to engage with it. And this is all a drop in the ocean compared to the success of the BNP et al.
Plus I think a lot of it is attention seeking anyway: "look at me, Dad! I'm a nazi satanist! Here's a video of an abortion!"
So it was a complete pisser when one part of "the scene" became dominated by all this right wing crap. I feel a little bit paternalistic about it all - when I was 16 I sucked up all this rag bag of information I'd gleaned from fanzines and record sleeves and it definitely influenced me.
So I feel a duty to put stuff out there which criticises the crypto (and not so crypto) fascism. There were people who were into this stuff who were mates who got drawn in to all that, started coming out with this ubermensch racist shite.
I think ignoring it is an option which the vast majority of the population have consciously or unconsciously taken on board. It is usually really embarassing when anti-fascists who aren't conversant with the nuances of the music/ideas try to engage with it. And this is all a drop in the ocean compared to the success of the BNP et al.
Plus I think a lot of it is attention seeking anyway: "look at me, Dad! I'm a nazi satanist! Here's a video of an abortion!"
STN
sou'wester
I got Torreros whatsit from that bookshop on church street. Well good.
Are Coil on the dodgy-politics list or not? I can't keep up. Sorry.
john eden
male pale and stale
Ha ha, no I think they are OK politically (well, they aren't fascists afaik - doesn't mean I'd see eye to eye with them on everything!)
but not exactly in my good books morally: http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2008/07/books-what-i-have-read-recently/
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
No, not really...end of around 85/86.
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
Stewart was more pissed that he'd written sleeve notes for them before he found out I figured.
D
droid
Guest
I had to watch one of these in school...
great thread!-!
NWW's Homotopy to Marie and almost every Coil album is closest to my idea of non-cheesy industrial. But also Suicide's old tapes and Cabs (even up to Covenant), those Swans drum machine albums.
As a kid, I understood industrial as records that had a more or less musique concréte approach. Like early Neubauten (which all still sounds great) or Test Dept's Beating the Retreat (havent heard for ages, I'd probably hate it now), or the early medical SPK stuff that I dont wanna hear anymore either. Some newer digital things like Sightings or even like Hecker have that kind of power. Also, Martin Rev's To LIve i thought was full on industrial.
Great points made on the fascism fascination.
I really wish I never knew a thing about Boyd Rice.
TG are pretty fantastic these days, i finc.
NWW's Homotopy to Marie and almost every Coil album is closest to my idea of non-cheesy industrial. But also Suicide's old tapes and Cabs (even up to Covenant), those Swans drum machine albums.
As a kid, I understood industrial as records that had a more or less musique concréte approach. Like early Neubauten (which all still sounds great) or Test Dept's Beating the Retreat (havent heard for ages, I'd probably hate it now), or the early medical SPK stuff that I dont wanna hear anymore either. Some newer digital things like Sightings or even like Hecker have that kind of power. Also, Martin Rev's To LIve i thought was full on industrial.
Great points made on the fascism fascination.
I really wish I never knew a thing about Boyd Rice.
TG are pretty fantastic these days, i finc.
john eden
male pale and stale
Skidoo's "Culling" and Zoviet France's stuff would I guess be classed as ambient-industrial? Also a lot of Nocturnal Emissions' best work.
Client Eastwood
Well-known member
So much to take in after reading this thread. Thanks.
The politics of some of this is off putting to me to be honest. Whether its done as art or testing the audiences reaction I dont really care but if people are turning to the NF BNP as a result of listening to your music you cant just say well its not my fault im just a singer of words and what people do as a result of listening to me is up to them.
But not all the material mentioned holds the views like above.
Some of it to me sound like dark gothic magical ambient liminal music. But I need to seperate that out from right wing leaning music. So would Coil be a good starting point ?
edit : ps i think i prefer electronic noise to guitar noise
The politics of some of this is off putting to me to be honest. Whether its done as art or testing the audiences reaction I dont really care but if people are turning to the NF BNP as a result of listening to your music you cant just say well its not my fault im just a singer of words and what people do as a result of listening to me is up to them.
But not all the material mentioned holds the views like above.
Some of it to me sound like dark gothic magical ambient liminal music. But I need to seperate that out from right wing leaning music. So would Coil be a good starting point ?
edit : ps i think i prefer electronic noise to guitar noise
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