scottdisco
rip this joint please
"Free education for all children in public schools."
Fascism!
- Thread starter josef k.
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dgaf ngaf cgaf
you still have to work in a communist society - what kind of utopia is that? I think that's where I really diverge from Marxism, this idea that labor is natural, spontaneous and liberating. To me the only labor worth doing has to have an equally destructive element, like say artistic production.
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Massrock, nobody has any issues with letting people hope for new possibilities. Who could stop anyone from doing that, anyway?
What people, like me, disapprove of is the particular way in which these days, if you don't agree with Badiou, or if you raise practical questions about how to enact the "idea" of communism without the utilization of authoritarian praxes, you are shouted down and called all manner of bad names the most obvious and common of which is "neo-liberal".
So retreating into the "pure ideal" of communism, a la Badiouians, seems to me more like something people use to shore up their sense of belonging and righteousness than anything. There is very little engagement on the part of people who read Badiou with strategy and practice and mobility and all the things that cause ideas to become actual.
And if you're wondering why people had strong reactions to Nikbee--how about the fact that he began his little 'discussion' by posting a slew of ad hominem attacks against anyone who dared to question his mobilization of Badiou, which really didn't fit the conversation or the circumstances very well?
What people, like me, disapprove of is the particular way in which these days, if you don't agree with Badiou, or if you raise practical questions about how to enact the "idea" of communism without the utilization of authoritarian praxes, you are shouted down and called all manner of bad names the most obvious and common of which is "neo-liberal".
So retreating into the "pure ideal" of communism, a la Badiouians, seems to me more like something people use to shore up their sense of belonging and righteousness than anything. There is very little engagement on the part of people who read Badiou with strategy and practice and mobility and all the things that cause ideas to become actual.
And if you're wondering why people had strong reactions to Nikbee--how about the fact that he began his little 'discussion' by posting a slew of ad hominem attacks against anyone who dared to question his mobilization of Badiou, which really didn't fit the conversation or the circumstances very well?
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
bingo
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Also, Massrock:
The idea that communists have cornered the market on what "equality" means seems laughable in light of their track record.
It seems anyone who was *really* faithful to the "true" ideal of communism would have no problems admitting that historical communism was horrific.
My problem isn't with Badiou himself, but with the idea, often floated by his readers, that there are only TWO options for the human race: capitalism, or communism.
I'm sure I don't have to explain why that is a ridiculous proposition?
Why not keep open the possibility of SEVERAL possibilities?
The idea that communists have cornered the market on what "equality" means seems laughable in light of their track record.
It seems anyone who was *really* faithful to the "true" ideal of communism would have no problems admitting that historical communism was horrific.
My problem isn't with Badiou himself, but with the idea, often floated by his readers, that there are only TWO options for the human race: capitalism, or communism.
I'm sure I don't have to explain why that is a ridiculous proposition?
Why not keep open the possibility of SEVERAL possibilities?
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I think everyone gave Nikbee quite a lot of chances...
I think that is a little unfair. It is good Nikbee is here, and I hope he sticks around; he raises important questions.
D
droid
Guest
I agree. Send him back to the Ustaše.
nice.
concerning the "pure ideal" (in his own words):
“‘The communist hypothesis remains the good one, I do not see any other. If we have to abandon this hypothesis, then it is no longer worth doing anything at all in the field of collective action. Without the horizon of communism, without this Idea, there is nothing in the historical and political becoming of any interest to a philosopher. Let everyone bother about his own affairs, and let us stop talking about it. In this case, the rat-man is right, as is, by the way, the case with some ex-communists who are either avid of their rents or who lost courage. However, to hold on to the Idea, to the existence of this hypothesis, does not mean that we should retain its first form of presentation which was centered on property and State. In fact, what is imposed on us as a task, even as a philosophical obligation, is to help a new mode of existence of the hypothesis to deploy itself.’”
“One should be careful not to read these lines in a Kantian way, conceiving Communism as a “regulative Idea,” thereby resuscitating the specter of “ethical socialism” with equality as its a priori norm-axiom… One should maintain the precise reference to a set of social antagonism(s) which generate the need for Communism – the good old Marx’s notion of Communism not as an ideal, but as a movement which reacts to actual social antagonisms, is still fully relevant. If we conceive Communism as an “eternal Idea,” this implies that the situation which generates it is no less eternal, that the antagonism to which Communism reacts will always be here – and from here, it is only one step to a “deconstructive” reading of Communism as a dream of presence, of abolishing all alienating re-presentation, a dream which thrives on its own impossibility .”
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vimothy
yurp
Not weak as in wrong, weak as in obviously right, weak as in borderline tautology -- the possibility of the possibility of communism. What is it, to say that something is possible? It is to advance a hypothesis with a low threshold of proof. We might do many things.
The spirit in which Communism was formulated is one thing, I admit, though you could say that about any other religion as well. But really, the intent of the Marx and Engels, their desires, motivations, are not easy to fathom from this distance, nor are they unproblematic to conceive of, nor, indeed, are they necessarily even relevant to questions concerning the nature of communism as a theory or as a historical practice. What interests me is where the theory and practice intersect, come apart, conflict, multiply -- how does communism the theory work as a social machine, as an engine of social, political, economic, affects? The ideal of communism is what communists tell themselves about themselves. It's like a myth of origin. It's like an epic poem.
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vimothy
yurp
I'm sure droid is taking the piss.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
Joe Higgins' dogged workerism
they should teach, in my schools: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.
and cookery.
and mathematics.
curriculum suggestions welcome.
i would also like to thank Josef for putting a picture of Franco Baresi on his blog!
i hope Nikbee and Massrock both stick around! Nikbee, much earlier in this thread, Nomad and Poetix had some quite fair discussions about Badiou if you want to skim back to around page 15 or so.
they should teach, in my schools: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_the_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.
and cookery.
and mathematics.
curriculum suggestions welcome.
i would also like to thank Josef for putting a picture of Franco Baresi on his blog!
i hope Nikbee and Massrock both stick around! Nikbee, much earlier in this thread, Nomad and Poetix had some quite fair discussions about Badiou if you want to skim back to around page 15 or so.
Yes but, isn't overcoming the destructive obstacles of artistic production liberating? you are contradicting yourself there
scottdisco
rip this joint please
entirely OT
it has only taken me four years and five months' membership here to put up an avatar.
excellent.
it has only taken me four years and five months' membership here to put up an avatar.
excellent.