Overwhelmingly joyful tunes

[four_five_one]

This is condescending in the extreme. Which "girls" are these? I'm sorry, but to me this sounds like another excuse to essentialize women as the less "machinic", less "rational", more "emotional", and less "intellectual" subspecies.

I agree, I think feminine actually just stands in here for enjoyable. It's music that the majority would want to move to & sing along to, opposed to music to overtly technical music, based more upon the appreciation of the producer's programming skills and the music's "weight".

'Ardcore could be described as pretty feminine, if one were to assess it by the criteria Reynolds provides (overt melody, "tunefulness", female vocals, poppy etc), but it's better described as a properly post-gender music, a state brought about by the desexualising effects of E.

In any case, this is may only be due to a statistical inevitability, but far more women are dancing to dubstep, and d'n'b, now that most traces of so-called feminine pressure have been extirpated. Kode 9 had something to say about this in his recent Wire interview:

"...And I suppose I can see where you’re getting at, but I think it tends to lead to huge generalisations, I’m thinking particularly of writers like Simon Reynolds… that kind of binary opposition, while I know and kind of agree where it’s coming from, and how it’s applied… it’s using that gender binary and superimposing it on top of what is a much complicated field, because women from different races and different classes really have very different musical preferences. So it’s very difficult to generalise. I’d prefer to think of it in terms of energy levels, and rhythm."

 

[massrock]

This is condescending in the extreme. Which "girls" are these? I'm sorry, but to me this sounds like another excuse to essentialize women as the less "machinic", less "rational", more "emotional", and less "intellectual" subspecies.

It's also a bit of a nudge to say, eh lads there'll be lots of ladees on the dance floor, knowharamean?

So maybe that's even worse.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I don't particularly like Led Zeppelin, either, I'm just saying, I think the idea that electronic music makers and listeners get laid more than rock makers and listeners did--or that the former scene is somehow more gender diverse than the latter--to be dubious at best.

wait, but how the hell did I say that? or even imply it?

I know "feminine pressure" is supposed to mean something about the technical presence of female vocals in UK dance music, but I don't really care about that, I think that sort of encoding is borderline sex-essentialist and lame. The "auteurs" of UK electronic music were still male, even if they were pulling samples of female vocals.

right, well if you're just going to say "no, it means what i want it to mean" then there's no point to having this discussion. I don't think anyone ever claimed that it was about anything other than male producers & DJs (& I guess, promoters, label owners, etc) responding to female tastes, or at least what they perceive as "female tastes". e.g. trying to get more women on the dance floor, on the (generally correct) assumption that men will follow.

on a related note I've been mentally compiling a list of lady junglists ever since I got into jungle. there are, unsurprisingly, not very many;

Kemistry & Storm
DJ Fallout
DJ Nut Nut (I think?)
Xtreme (of Harmony & Xtreme)
Jo (off "R Type" fame)
DJ Spice (the white female one, there's also a black male DJ Spice)
DJ Rap of course
1.8.7. - transgendered (MTF) producer from NYC

all you back in the day heads, am I missing anyone? behind the scenes types surely?

the only female UKG producer I can think of is Lady Penelope but there have to been (at least a few) more

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

"...And I suppose I can see where you’re getting at, but I think it tends to lead to huge generalisations, I’m thinking particularly of writers like Simon Reynolds… that kind of binary opposition, while I know and kind of agree where it’s coming from, and how it’s applied… it’s using that gender binary and superimposing it on top of what is a much complicated field, because women from different races and different classes really have very different musical preferences. So it’s very difficult to generalise. I’d prefer to think of it in terms of energy levels, and rhythm."

yeah I noticed that & thought he had a good point, specifically in offering an alternative way in which to contextualize it.

 

[swears]

It's also a bit of a nudge to say, eh lads there'll be lots of ladees on the dance floor, knowharamean?

So maybe that's even worse.

No, I hate sausage parties, the atmosphere always sucks. If there aren't any women at a club/gig then it's probably going to be dire. And I'm not speaking as someone who ever went out to chat up girls, 'cause, you know, loldepression and that.

 

[massrock]

I'm sorry comrade, but unfortunately you fail to comprehend the correct nuumological significance & context of Beardy German Blokes w/Synthesizers (henceforth referred to as BGBs). early BGB work is either too avant-abstract, not hairy enough (i.e. early Kraftwerk) or in the case of kosmiche, too beardy - somber-solemn & mystical - (Tangerine Dream, Popol Vuh) to be properly Joyful. not enough Feminine Pressure is there, what with all these BGBs hiding themselves away in rented castles & holding 24 hour jam sessions. you can only do that when there's no girls around innit.

The 'nuumological significance' of something that happened 20 years before rave!

Who's setting up oppositions and privileging one thing over another here though? I don't need those divisions, although I have my preferences from time to time. But you were kidding of course, as was I obviously in saying that German dudes 'invented' joy in 1971. Still the 'nuumolgoical significance' is probably that some of those guys were way, way ahead, as they had a right to be, hairy enough or not.

If we're being specific it was Neu! I had in mind (no doubt too poised, or hipster passe to be truly joyful or something...), but I think there is tons of joy of various ecstatic flavours in a great deal of that music, some early Kraftwerk and Popol Vuh included.

Anyway talk about a way to kill joy!

 

[massrock]

No, I hate sausage parties, the atmosphere always sucks. If there aren't any women at a club/gig then it's probably going to be dire. And I'm not speaking as someone who ever went out to chat up girls, 'cause, you know, loldepression and that.

Won't argue with you there man.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It's also a bit of a nudge to say, eh lads there'll be lots of ladees on the dance floor, knowharamean?

So maybe that's even worse.

Urgh, men and women dancing together on a dance floor...I expect some of them aren't even married!

 

[massrock]

Oh yeah I'm shocked and appalled.

Come off it, there is sometimes an element of that. And it's a crap way to organise a night or a music policy, as well as being a bloke's idea of what 'the ladies like'.

But then maybe you like the sort of clubs where ladees get free entry and no-one really cares what the music is.

 

[massrock]

The context is a bunch of blokes in a record shop remember.

Have you ever seen what happens when a young woman walks into a specialist record shop?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Oh yeah I'm shocked and appalled.

Come off it, there is sometimes an element of that. And it's a crap way to organise a night or a music policy, as well as being a bloke's idea of what 'the ladies like'.

Maybe if you go to those kind of nights - I wouldn't know as garage/2-step is not my thing at all. And I wouldn't say there's any particular divergence between what most of my female clubbing friends like to listen (and dance) to, and what I and my male clubbing friends like.

But then maybe you like the sort of clubs where ladees get free entry and no-one really cares what the music is.

Oh dear. You could not be more wrong.

 

[massrock]

Yeah exactly, you don't need to make special concessions to some idea of what 'girls' like to have a night with great music and a good gender balance, or vice versa even.

Although in terms of a scene eager to emerge from a phase of overly masculine appeal I suppose it does make sense. But that's not my problem.

 

[dominic]

here are some of my favorite "joyful" or arguably "joyful" records =====

(1) joyful-to-beautiful new wave

b-52s, "give me back my man"

stranglers, "skin deep"

blaine l. reininger, "mystery and confusion"

anna domino, 'land of my dreams"

soft verdict, "struggle for pleasure"

missing persons, "surrender your heart"

book of love, "i touch roses"

chris & cosey, "october love song"

taffy, "i love my radio"

(2) joyful shoegaze =

cocteau twins, "carolyn's fingers"

cocteau twins, "lorelei"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKodfNkYMeM

felt, "primitive painters"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZU3PR7lqGw

one or two songs by Lush (none seem to be on youtube)

(3) joyful proto-techno

Jean Michel Jarre, "Geometry of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAC8UmoySk0

Indochine, "Okinawa"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJCuVUgQVUA

Der Plan, "Bleib Geld"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcdpETWR8Qk

Harmonia - Deluxe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd1BH7Nbk8c

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yeah sure, I think we basically agree. I was just responding to what I saw as a tendency towards "Well if you do something as base, crass and carnal as to pull in a club then you obviously aren't paying due attention to the music!". Which you probably didn't intend at all, of course.

The whole VIP area/no-all-male-groups/ladeez get in free/smart trousers/no trainers/toilet-attendant-with-a-selection-of-colognes aspect of clubbing is the aspect I avoid like the plague.







(Smart trainers/no trousers is the way to go, of course.)

 

[baboon2004]

The whole VIP area/no-all-male-groups/ladeez get in free/smart trousers/no trainers/toilet-attendant-with-a-selection-of-colognes aspect of clubbing is the aspect I avoid like the plague.

In theory yes, but in practice (in London at least), the only clubs I've seen operate these policies outside Leicester Square are primarily black clubs, which are seeking to...I don't know, not be seen to be frequented by the murderous young black males that the newspapers tell us lurk on every corner, ie not be shut down for (shock, horror) admitting people in hoodies.

So I'm not sure it's so simple to reject these kind of places (in an ideal world of course, these rules are insane, but in the real world they often spring from somewhere very specific).

Okay, the toilet attendant thing is a whole other debate....

 

[Mr. Tea]

In theory yes, but in practice (in London at least), the only clubs I've seen operate these policies outside Leicester Square are primarily black clubs, which are seeking to...I don't know, not be seen to be frequented by the murderous young black males that the newspapers tell us lurk on every corner, ie not be shut down for (shock, horror) admitting people in hoodies.

So I'm not sure it's so simple to reject these kind of places (in an ideal world of course, these rules are insane, but in the real world they often spring from somewhere very specific).

Okay, the toilet attendant thing is a whole other debate....

Meh, I dare say there's a reason for it - but I'd much rather just go somewhere that's got a more relaxed, friendly atmosphere. Which I generally find to be the case at techno nights, which is what I like to dance to anyway, so it's all good.

Edit: back on topic, the guitar solo at the end of 'Plateau' by the Meat Puppets is unutterably joyful. Especially effective as the rest of the song is quite melancholy.

 

[wonk_vitesse]

What's the song that establishes the greatest distance between instrumental joy and lyrical despair (without it being done solely for superficially ironic effect)?

At the time it was released The Cure certainly weren't on an ironic tip, this song enthuses with joy almost to the point of relishing the very despair they seek to convey.

Inbetween Days - The Cure live @ Orange

couldn't seem to find the original wacko vid.

 

[baboon2004]

Artful Dodger - Movin Too Fast

 

[crackerjack]

The whole VIP area/no-all-male-groups/ladeez get in free/smart trousers/no trainers/toilet-attendant-with-a-selection-of-colognes aspect of clubbing is the aspect I avoid like the plague.

The toilet attendant thing is just a ruse to cut down on really overt drug use, isn't it?

Though you're right- clubs that do so should be shunned.

edit: do they exist anywhere outside of London? Never saw one in Manchester.

 

[nomadthethird]

The toilet attendant thing is just a ruse to cut down on really overt drug use, isn't it?

Though you're right- clubs that do so should be shunned.

edit: do they exist anywhere outside of London? Never saw one in Manchester.

I always thought it was a rich person thing. They do it all the best Manhattan hotels, too, like the Carlysle and the Ritz. It's very annoying, especially when you are trying to do drugs and you feel the Mexican women waiting for you and listening, so they can be the first to open the door for you. And then when they try to dry your hands for you, ugh... you're supposed to tip them, too, btw.