"Owning"

[droid]

aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

No its not. From about the age of 4 to the age of 15 years CHINK was my nickname because of the shape of my eyes. Its not particularly obvious IMO but in a racially homogeneous society it seemed it stood out. The nurses in hospital made similar jokes about my son when he was born.

Im glad to see youre mocking this fact... Im not completely Asian so I cant be racially slurred?

Please go fuck yourself Zhao. Im finished with this.

Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

 

[reeltoreel]

nope.

2. "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" -- this message is most CERTAINLY NOT apparent, or even exists at all, in the story.

3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"

Well, yes. That message doesn't exist in that piece. But the story you posted serves a function within a much wider narrative which carries the opposite message.

It's been a long time since I read Promethea, so I could be wrong.

I just think you're drawing a long bow when you compare a skit on a national television show in a country with a continuing system of institutional racism with a piece taken from the work of someone who has spent the better part of their career working to break down stereotypes of all kinds.

 

[zhao]

I think my reaction would be "gosh that's really unpleasant, surely it can't be for real?", even without knowing the context.

well that was mine too at first. but then i found absolutely nothing which said that it wasn't for real.

and to cite Alan Moore's history as a leftist activist has nothing to do with the meaning and impact of this story, which again is not even written by him.

people who think they are against racism can, and do all the time, entertain racist notions, and espouse racist views. especially toward certain groups, which are seen as some how more than OK to discriminate against than others. which is what this conversation was originally about.

 

[baboon2004]

(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?

 

[massrock]

(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?

Isn't it saying, don't forget how disgusting this is?

 

[Slothrop]

Maybe it's because I grew up with Noddy, Enid Blyton, Rupert Bear, Tintin etc, but I can't imagine anyone coming to that comic and not realizing that it's a deliberate and self conscious parody / critique of older childrens stories and comics.

Whether it does anything interesting or insightful with that idea or whether it's just 'hey look everyone, people used to be really racist omg wtf lol' I don't know because I haven't read the comic.

 

[reeltoreel]

(@reel) How is that particular example helping to 'break down' stereotypes though? From what people have been saying, apparently it's 'we used to do this, but now we don't. no, not at all', which is a silly thing to do. Everyone knows what is written is offensive - what is the author trying to prove by repeating racial slurs?

Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don't have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

It's not something I would do myself, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged. It's a device I find extremely distasteful, but that visceral distaste is sort of the idea.

I just wanted to say that there are much better targets for anti-racist invective than Alan Moore.

 

[baboon2004]

Within the narrative of the series, I think it's do with Promethea being the source of imaginative inspiration and the different forms this inspiration takes, as well as the effects it has, at different points in history. This story (the series of frames that Zhao posted) is a negative product of that. Again, it's been a while since I've read the book and I don;t have a copy to hand, but I'm fairly sure that's it.

It's not something I would do myself, and I certainly don't think it should be encouraged. It's a device I find extremely distasteful, but that visceral distaste is sort of the idea.

I just wanted to say that there are much better targets for anti-racist invective than Alan Moore.

fair enough. but as you say, don't think it could be encouraged.

 

[baboon2004]

Isn't it saying, don't forget how disgusting this is?

but it still happens now. that was my point - pretending it's all 'done and dusted' is part of the problem. i'd have infinitely more respect for the guy if he portrayed that - that would be valuable.

 

[massrock]

but it still happens now.

So that would be why it's still worth saying?

Anyway I think reeltoreel gives a bit more context above. I've not read this but I've read enough Alan Moore (though this is Steve Moore) to know there is no way it's some puerile smirking at how dodgy comics used to be or something.

 

[massrock]

And seriously, I shouldn't have to be typing this but I can't believe people here actually seem to be implying that art shouldn't explore difficult themes. Of course things like that are going to draw accusations of complicity, but maybe that's part of the point?

 

[droid]

but it still happens now. that was my point - pretending it's all 'done and dusted' is part of the problem. i'd have infinitely more respect for the guy if he portrayed that - that would be valuable.

Its a deliberate pisstake of Winston McKay and 'Nemo in slumberland'. 'Chinky' is analogous to 'Jungle Imp'. Its dated 1905 and has a fictional publication history and author.

Its an addendum to the Promethea books (5 volumes), and is part of a conceit where Moore portrays his characters in the manner in which they would have been portrayed at the time - like using Black and white footage for old shots in a new documentary. In an issue of Tomorrows stories (IIRC) the rationalisation for the racist portrayal is revealed - Margie's childishness (and the childishness of the medium). When she (literally) outgrows the panels the stereotypical portayal of 'Chinky' vanishes and he becomes a 'real' character. It is a comment on the growth of the medium, on the portrayal of race in comics, on the 'innocence' of earlier eras) all of which have parallels to the main narrative which is extremely symbolic and full of references.

Can I again suggest that you read the work in question before indulging in kneejerk reaction?

BTW Baboon, since you brought up the topic of race, do you agree with Zhao that I'm not Asian enough to be upset when people call me chink?

 

[zhao]

Fuck you prick.

Please go fuck yourself Zhao.

Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

so it is I who has turned into a "nasty piece of work"... says the man spraying profanities and spittle all over the room.

riiiiight....

please enlighten: exactly how, and to whom, have i been a prick to?

to your favorite comic writer? by questioning the integrity of his publishing house? by not understanding the irony, and appreciating the finesse of this anti-racist story which only "seems" racist to the uneducated, ignorant, and dense?

if so, guilty as charged. for that is exactly what i have done.

and what about you, sir?

what if i am someone who did not know who Alan Moore is before now, who found this story racist and perpetuating racist stereotypes?

what you have done is call me a string of names such as "cretin", "uneducated", "prick", infer that i am stupid ("are you still trying to understand From Hell?") ---- all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.

yes, Droid, you are forever the righteous and intelligent one, and i am a dumb nasty piece of work...

plain for anyone to see, really.

 

[baboon2004]

BTW Baboon, since you brought up the topic of race, do you agree with Zhao that I'm not Asian enough to be upset when people call me chink?

Dude, last post, page before this - could I suggest that YOU read previous posts?

 

[droid]

all in an attempt to shut down discussion, and silence the non-white who cries racism.

This kind of thing is why you deserve the ad hominems TBH...

Cya.

 

[nomadthethird]

do you think re-enacting a minstrel show without context, without obvious, apparent irony, but with all the racism, is OK to be broadcast on children's hour television?

i wrote those notes. i was offended by this.

please tell me more about how i am over reacting to artistic irony, Caucasian person.

Zhao, don't bother, seriously.

You'll just get upset, and privilege will still be blind.

 

[nomadthethird]

No its not. From about the age of 4 to the age of 15 years CHINK was my nickname because of the shape of my eyes. Its not particularly obvious IMO but in a racially homogeneous society it seemed it stood out. The nurses in hospital made similar jokes about my son when he was born.

Im glad to see youre mocking this fact... Im not completely Asian so I cant be racially slurred?

Please go fuck yourself Zhao. Im finished with this.

Youve turned into a really nasty piece of work mate...

Uhh how does the fact that someone mistook you for Asian mean anything in this thread?

 

[droid]

Dude, last post, page before this - could I suggest that YOU read previous posts?

I did read it, you said that 'its not exactly' the same thing as saying your friend is black... so you don't exactly agree with Zhao that its just an excuse for racism?

Am I to take it then that you agree that I'm not Asian enough to have been called 'chink' for ten years?

 

[nomadthethird]

aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

I've heard this same shit about once a day every day from the anti-immigration lobbyists.

But but... I married a woman who was 1/24 Mexican! Therefore I can't be racist.

 

[massrock]

Things is though, isn't the real problem with attitudes like those parodied in this comic strip not so much that some might feel personally offended by them but rather that there is an audience out there who would take it and the implicit attitudes at face value? And isn't that where the context of a particular work is relevant? I.e. who would that supposed audience be for this book?