Brexit Day
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haji
lala
i went out on brexit eve and mistakenly phoned my dear aunty in rural north scotland (i was running late and my fat fingers got the wrong person). I told her that i was not bothered standing in the rain waiting for the bus as long as it rained on those brexit eejits in parliament square
i was surprised when she said she'd be with them if she lived closer
we've not discussed the b word before, but as an ex-pat sassenach she was very concerned and anti-scottish independence. She says that she feels that being out of Yurp will be a better situation. Her issues, expressed gently as she is is a nice person, were about power being stuck in london as well as the glasgow/edinburgh corridor.
I countered that it feels like now there are 2 ends of a spectrum, rather than power in those centres away from the peripheries, with London now out on a limb, effectively disenfranchised having voted against the tories and brexit and got em anyway. no raised voices or hurt feelings. And that it's hard to see what sort of evidence could ever ultimately prove her right, which she agreed.
(her brother, my dad is a remainer former tory voter, utterly skewered and very difficlut to talk to about this stuff)
getting off the tube a guy with a face mask passed me on the up escalator at Kings X, a bunch of lads behind me shouted "ya don't need that ere mate, yeh why don't cha go back where you came from".
i know you all like stories, so that's my little brexit eve anecdote
i was surprised when she said she'd be with them if she lived closer
we've not discussed the b word before, but as an ex-pat sassenach she was very concerned and anti-scottish independence. She says that she feels that being out of Yurp will be a better situation. Her issues, expressed gently as she is is a nice person, were about power being stuck in london as well as the glasgow/edinburgh corridor. I countered that it feels like now there are 2 ends of a spectrum, rather than power in those centres away from the peripheries, with London now out on a limb, effectively disenfranchised having voted against the tories and brexit and got em anyway. no raised voices or hurt feelings. And that it's hard to see what sort of evidence could ever ultimately prove her right, which she agreed.
(her brother, my dad is a remainer former tory voter, utterly skewered and very difficlut to talk to about this stuff)
getting off the tube a guy with a face mask passed me on the up escalator at Kings X, a bunch of lads behind me shouted "ya don't need that ere mate, yeh why don't cha go back where you came from".
i know you all like stories, so that's my little brexit eve anecdote
john eden
male pale and stale
I meant specifically the ultra-remainer MPs who had the power to bind parliament to a soft brexit. But they were cheered on by a periphery of fanatics using that hashtag on Twitter. I picture these types as the ones who wear the EU berets to marches. I don't mean your ordinary remain voter, but people who put remain at the centre of their political ideology and will not move beyond it.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I should say the priority is to make sure that anger is directed at the people actually responsible for this whole mess - something you've seemed oddly reluctant to do - and not at immigrants (EU or otherwise) and ethnic minorities, who are already suffering a rising tide of hate crimes - something else you haven't addressed in this thread, that I've seen.
And to be honest, if I lost my job because of Brexit (unlikely, thankfully, given the area I work in), then yeah, I would be pretty fucking hacked off at the people who'd brought it on, even if some of them had lost their jobs too. Wouldn't you?
john eden
male pale and stale
Yes I think the priority is to direct anger at parliament and the EU and not people who voted for Brexit, or immigrants, or ethnic minorities.
It is not possible to do that if at the same time you are also saying that people who voted for Brexit are brainwashed chavs. Is my entire point on this thread.
If you now want for us both to get our "this is what I have personally done to fight against hatecrimes and racism" dicks out, we can do that as well.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Terrible people no doubt... but did they have any real influence? This argument is normally made - as far as I can see - by Leavers who can see that the party in power has made a right fucking mess of negotiating Brexit with the EU, negotiating it with themselves, voting it through parliament (even with a majority), and ultimately delivering anything like what was promised anywhere near on time.
Surely we can all agree that, whatever Remainers have done, Tories have made a spectacular cock-up of Brexit as well?
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john eden
male pale and stale
Well no.
On the surface of it - £350m on the side of a bus, "the Brexit dividend", "the easiest trade deal in history" they have not and will not hit the mark.
But that wasn't the mark. The mark, as literally presented up to the whole country in December, was "get Brexit done". And say what you like about that, the electorate gobbled it up like a ravenous wolf.
Everything else will be spin. The delays can be blamed on a remainer parliament and the EU working against the will of the people, for starters.
The main thing the Tories care about is power and they just got that in spades.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
It's not "parliament" as a whole that's at fault though, despite your insistence on making out that pro-Remain MPs are equally to blame. It's specifically the Tory party and UKIP/BXP (and, unfortunately, a pro-Brexit minority of Labour MPs, including Corbyn and most of his inner circle). Of course for any challenge to this hegemony to be effective then Labour will need a credible leader, so we'll just have to wait and see on that front.
"Brainwashed chavs" is your phrase, not mine. I've already supplied a link showing that Brexit support peaks with the lower middle class, not the working class. And I'd never used the word "brainwashed" because that's the vocabulary of people who think Jews did 9/11 and vaccines are bad for you, but I maintain that most people who voted for it (and still support it now) are misinformed. This is no blind prejudice, it's come from years of trying to debate Leavers online and, occasionally, IRL. I've never yet heard an argument for it that can't be pretty easily dismissed as based on false premises.
So no, I'm not backing down from that position just because it antagonises your romantic notion of salt-of-the-earth wisdom.
TBC, I'm not accusing you, personally, of tolerating hate crimes. But xenophobia and racism is an unavoidable element of this whole issue and you appear to have tiptoed around it every time I've brought it up.
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IdleRich
IdleRich
But you don't think they wanted better terms, more trade deals negotiated etc etc in fact just to do it more quickly?
I agree power is the main goal but surely even Tories would prefer to have met their secondary goals more competently? I mean there is a reason Johnson is pretending Brexit is finished and trying to ban the word - and it's not cos he's proud of his flawless hard negotiating and nimble political footwork is it?
I agree power is the main goal but surely even Tories would prefer to have met their secondary goals more competently? I mean there is a reason Johnson is pretending Brexit is finished and trying to ban the word - and it's not cos he's proud of his flawless hard negotiating and nimble political footwork is it?
john eden
male pale and stale
Parliament: Brexit is the result of a faction fight in the ruling class. I'm not expecting everyone to join in with me but I'm not in the mood for letting any of them off the hook.
Chavs: Why exactly did you post that picture of the guy in the union jack t-shirt? Why did you believe that the obvious parody of the couple who named their baby "Brexit" was real?
Hatecrimes: We have discussed previously the issue of people's justifiable anger being misdirected, no? With each economic crisis there is an uptick in racism, in violence against women, in homophobia.
I have mentioned on another thread, my slightly crap attempt at confronting a young man engaged in anti-semitic activity on my actual road. I may or may not have mentioned getting out on the streets to confront one of the buoyant far right formations marching through London last year. These, and general community work like my mates starting food co-ops, I would count as productive activity.
Characterising anyone who voted for Brexit as racist, is not something I would count as productive.
I find it bizarre that I would have to spell these things out but am happy to do so as today is apparently the day I outed myself as being both a massive fan of MPs who voted for Brexit and also a UKIP voter.
john eden
male pale and stale
It's not gone to plan but Boris and his coterie have ended up in power with a huge majority. He ate as many as he could get.
Like I said, the delays etc can be spun as him being the plucky hero implementing the will of the people against all odds.
The hardships can be spun as the EU not wanting us to leave.
craner
Beast of Burden
There has always been strong resentment against the EU which has been growing ever since people twigged, however intuitively, that "Europe" had turned into a political project rather than simply an economic bloc. Maastricht, Lisbon, Labour discarding the 7 year transition period after A8...this has been gestating for a long time, way before the Tory lies and the Russian agents.
A lot of people were ignorant about the details of this development while it was happening because it was incredibly opaque and in large part obscured...in particular, by successive governments who knew that what they were doing -- or signing up to at summits nobody paid attention to or understood the purpose of anyway -- would not be popular with a lot of people who voted for them in domestic elections. It was never a purely economic argument. If it was, then the EEC would never have become the EU.
One thing we forget or ignore in this country, obsessed as we are with our racism, stupidity and self-hatred, is that the steady progression to greater political integration is also very unpopular in other EU countries, including one of the supposedly greatest beneficiaries, France. Any chance any population gets to vote for this, it is usually against, always for lots of reasons, but all related in some way to the evidence and implications of greater political union.
However inarticulate, this is what people are reacting against and it is as ignorant to dismiss them for it. I voted Remain, but I really agree with Eden on this point.
A lot of people were ignorant about the details of this development while it was happening because it was incredibly opaque and in large part obscured...in particular, by successive governments who knew that what they were doing -- or signing up to at summits nobody paid attention to or understood the purpose of anyway -- would not be popular with a lot of people who voted for them in domestic elections. It was never a purely economic argument. If it was, then the EEC would never have become the EU.
One thing we forget or ignore in this country, obsessed as we are with our racism, stupidity and self-hatred, is that the steady progression to greater political integration is also very unpopular in other EU countries, including one of the supposedly greatest beneficiaries, France. Any chance any population gets to vote for this, it is usually against, always for lots of reasons, but all related in some way to the evidence and implications of greater political union.
However inarticulate, this is what people are reacting against and it is as ignorant to dismiss them for it. I voted Remain, but I really agree with Eden on this point.
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luka
Well-known member
Even when zhao said AIDS was invented in a Nike lab in Oregon
yyaldrin
in je ogen waait de wind
this is true, both france and holland, founding members of the eu voted against the european constitution in a 2005 referendum. the eu then decided to rewrite some sentences, scrap the referenda and introduce it anyway.
this is almost a copy of brexit:
luka
Well-known member
We all voted remain (actually I didn't, but I tried to. Turned out I wasn't registered to vote) and we lost. So that's the end of that. As John says we will be living in a fascist state in about 5 to 10 years anyway. Might as well commit suicide now and spare yourself the worst. That's my philosophy.