Brexit Day

[Mr. Tea]

And you've (edit: JE) completely missed the point, which is absolutely not that anyone who supports Brexit must be morally or intellectually deficient. My dad is pro-Brexit (or was, I think he might just be sick of it by now) and he's neither of those things, although he is badly misinformed about lots of things, which I think is probably true of a lot of Leavers. I've certainly yet to hear a cogent argument from any Leaver as to how they expect to be benefit from it.

What I find bizarre is that all your anger is focused on the people who've spent four years saying "This really isn't going to boost the economy, it's going to hit the working class in the Midlands and North worst of all, it's emboldening the far right and it's been led from the outset by a bunch of crooks and spivs", even as businesses went under, factories closed and Polish women got beaten up in the streets, rather than on said crooks and spivs.

You've even accepted the received wisdom that Brexit is primarily a working-class phenomenon, when in fact the most pro-Brexit demographic is middle-class Tories.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The German Revolution was one of the major factors in ending World War I. Which was nice.

Fair enough, I suppose all's well that ends well.

 

[IdleRich]

I suppose the basic problem is that at the heart of your position is the contradiction

Get Angry With Everything vs Let This Go

And (as you can prove anything from a contradiction) what follows is all nonsensical.

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

So basically everyone is a cunt and no-one holds a genuine opinion on Brexit. Really helpful contribution to the debate, thank you.
Apart from the neutral potentially... I've never met one but maybe that's you, sitting buddha-like above the fray permitting yourself a wry smile at human stupidity every now and again.

Powerful signalling here.

 

[IdleRich]

I really did not expect to hear these kinds of statement on this board

I mean, the last guy who tried to unify Europe only managed 6 million.

We could have had a soft Brexit if the forces of #FBPE had engaged with the democratic process at the back end of last year.

But some people reckon that might be worth it just to see the look of horror on the faces of people who have done very well thank you out of the current arrangements.

All kinda classic UKIP kneejerks I see on Twitter or whatever every day.

 

[john eden]

I think I prefer if it people get angry with being cheated and that provides an energy for change... didn't you just say the same thing? Which is why I find it so weird that you advocate general anger and resistance but when there is a huge right-wing takeover involving Russian money, dodgy elections, loss of rights and so on you're completely blase and happy to sweep it under the carpet. I don't understand the contradiction in your position. Produce well-thought out and valid criticism of almost every that happens - and then when something absolutely massive and inarguably wrong comes along you just go "oh well". I really truly find your thinking on this... bizarre, disingenuous to the point of dis-honesty I'm afraid. I mean, I know you, I know you're not dishonest but that's what I'm getting from this debate.

Well my anger is broad and inclusive, if that helps.

As we've seen, I don't agree with the thesis that 17 million people were conned by the media and the Russians. Which means that Brexit is not "inarguably wrong".

People who do think that will not be able to work effectively with working class communities who voted for Brexit.

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

I really did not expect to hear these kinds of statement on this board






All kinda classic UKIP kneejerks I see on Twitter or whatever every day.

The wisdom of crowds vs the remainer echo chamber

 

[IdleRich]

The funniest thing about Brexit will be the #FBPE midwits claiming they were all for it when it turns out nowhere near as bad as anticipated.
Weren't we supposed to be under martial law and offering up our first born for a loaf of bread by now?

Such an incredible lack of understanding you should be banned for three days to sit in the corner and think about what you've done...

1. I don't WANT Brexit to be bad. If it's as bad as I think it's going to dramatically reduce my quality of life. I'm not so stupid that I want to be proven right at the expense of ruining my life. I would LOVE to be mistaken about Brexit. Please let me be wrong, let the pound go up, let jobs increase etc etc

2. Please please tell me you're just lying when you pretend to think that Brexit has kicked in. HMGT I would like a specific answer to this question - do you or do you not realise that at the moment, although we have irrevocably set the wheels in motion to leave, in all important ways we are still effectively part of the EU until 2020? Whatever evasive and clever bullshit you dribble out can you give a yes or no to that bit.

 

[IdleRich]

The wisdom of crowds vs the remainer echo chamber

Is that this remainer echo chamber where we're in the middle of an argument about the merits of remain?
Do you think about what you say at all?
Also - does what you're saying mean anything?

 

[IdleRich]

Well my anger is broad and inclusive, if that helps.

Except for the things it doesn't include.

"There are no limits.... though obviously that's within certain boundaries"

 

[john eden]

I really did not expect to hear these kinds of statement on this board

All kinda classic UKIP kneejerks I see on Twitter or whatever every day.

The first one of those things you've quoted was a response to you wishing death on 17 million people, which is also not something I would usually expect to see on these boards.

The second is just a simple fact. (Which apparently is an awful thing to say because Remainers should not be expected to vote for any kind of Brexit, although Leavers are supposed to accept that Brexit should be completely overturned. Oh yeah and soft brexit is pointless).

The third is an analysis that people can agree with or disagree with.

Selectively quoting me and then doing algebra in your head to make me Nigel Farage is probably very therapeutic but ultimately unhelpful in an era of binary culture wars.

 

[john eden]

Also maybe don't suggest that people should be banned?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Selectively quoting me and then doing algebra in your head to make me Nigel Farage is...

... pretty redundant since you're doing a very good job of that by yourself.

 

[IdleRich]

The first one of those things you've quoted was a response to you wishing death on 17 million people, which is also not something I would usually expect on these boards

You must MUST have known that I was joking then. Not in a "Oh look I'm gonna say this and take it back by pretending it was a joke way" but in a "Hey everyone this a joke" kinda way. I think it's pretty disingenuous (again) to pretend otherwise.

The second is just a simple fact. (Which apparently is an awful thing to say because Remainers should not be expected to vote for any kind of Brexit, although Leavers are supposed to accept that Brexit should be completely overturned. Oh yeah and soft brexit is pointless).

The point is it was a tactical decision not a moral one (and one among many). You're using it to say that if Remainers had played nicely then they wouldn't have been punished... it's sleight of hand.

The third is an analysis that people can agree with or disagree with.

Yeah but a) it's one that is obviously wrong cos the people who are doing well nicely are gonna be doing even better thank you. The people who will lose out - as every analysis has pointed out - are the people at the bottom and in the middle
b) It's an 'analysis' (if we're gonna be kind) that is made by loads of angry right-wingers. Now just cos you're making one argument the same as - as you say - Nigel Farage doesn't make you Farage, but if it were me I'd want to look at the argument again. And all of them in fact.

 

[john eden]

Well thanks for proving my point about the futility of refusing to move beyond this.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But some people reckon that might be worth it just to see the look of horror on the faces of people who have done very well thank you out of the current arrangements.

Some people are entitled to think what they like. The fact remains that the communities most vulnerable to economic upheaval caused by Brexit are exactly those with local economies based on heavy manufacture, agriculture and so on, especially in the North and Midlands. Maybe they'll laugh themselves hoarse at people like me suffering a prosciutto shortage while they queue up for their universal credit (or Grateful Peasant Crumbs or whatever it'll be called by that time), but I doubt it.

The idea of 'sticking it to the metropolitan middle classes' isn't even cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's more like the other way round.

 

[IdleRich]

Also maybe don't suggest that people should be banned?

OK just for the avoidance of confusion, I do not want or expect HMGT to be banned. Nor do I expect him/her to sit in the corner and think about what s/he's done. The confluence of the two was supposed to indicate the frivolity of the post.

 

[john eden]

I don't understand why only one of us is able to make genocidal jokes but let's put that to one side for a moment.

The point is it was a tactical decision not a moral one (and one among many). You're using it to say that if Remainers had played nicely then they wouldn't have been punished... it's sleight of hand.

In the context of me being berated for not caring about working class people suffering as a result of Brexit, it seemed fair enough to bring this up. I doubt that the people who suffer as a result of Brexit will care very much if it was a moral or tactical decision.

This is an example of me being "angry" with parliamentarians.

There is also my general background level of anger against the Conservative Party which I had assumed would go without saying what with me being an anarchocommunist and having spent much of the weekend writing about someone burning down Hackney Tory HQ in 1987 and also having recently made a formal complaint against my local conservative councillor for being a homophobic twat and also having gone on virtually every march against austerity in London over the last 10 years and all the rest of it that I won't bore you with.

 

[john eden]

Some people are entitled to think what they like. The fact remains that the communities most vulnerable to economic upheaval caused by Brexit are exactly those with local economies based on heavy manufacture, agriculture and so on, especially in the North and Midlands. Maybe they'll laugh themselves hoarse at people like me suffering a prosciutto shortage while they queue up for their universal credit (or Grateful Peasant Crumbs or whatever it'll be called by that time), but I doubt it.

The idea of 'sticking it to the metropolitan middle classes' isn't even cutting off your nose to spite your face. It's more like the other way round.

The issue for me is, if this happens, which of these two things do we do (we can only do one of them)?

a. The "I told you so" route.
b. The solidarity with people at the sharp end route.

Twitter celebrity Terry Christian has chosen (a) and thinks that people who voted for Brexit should be made redundant first.

 

[IdleRich]

This is an example of me being "angry" with parliamentarians

I too am angry with mps. I think they were inflexible and made errors.
But you said originally that FBPE or whatever they are called are responsible. I thought that was more of a general public remainer group (could be wrong - enlighten me) and I took your argument to be "The people who lost the referendum should have just shut up and accepted what had happened- and now they are rightly being punished with a hard Brexit" which is very different from what you have now pivoted to.