Brexit Day
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- & met with rocco forte a licky boom boom down active rich but you said you’d use butter charge of the light brigade eden annihilating idle richie eden smashing mr teas face he'll be tired by sunrise john's audit long john eden love me dog love me wife luka is a genius not the brexit i voted for petty and spiteful sex arse tycoon testicle growth the day john eden went full ukip the key to your stupidity tomato shortage pizza you brexit you buy it
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Right, but this "a pox on both their houses" attitude isn't helpful at all. Whatever you may think of Chukka Umuna or Jo Swinson or Nicola Sturgeon or anyone else on the Remain side, it's madness to imply that they're somehow equally to blame with Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees-Mogg.
I am prepared to go out on a limb and assume that that one particular man is probably a bit of a prick and not someone I would get on with terribly well. The idea of Brexit as a sort of 'war' is an extremely common trope among people who never made even the pretence of having an economic argument for it and are motivated solely by jingoistic nationalism and xenophobia.
You want to take that one particular guy as a synecdoche for the entire British working class then that's on you.
Because, as I've already explained, I didn't watch it, you didn't say it was a parody and it's not even that far-fetched. In fact:
Tory MP couple nicknake their baby 'Brexit'
Birth notice in German newspaper apparently for baby christened 'Brexit'
Good for you - and I really mean that. But like I said, I wasn't accusing you of walking on by as immigrants got beaten up. I was accusing you of ignoring that aspect of Brexit *in this thread*.
Just as well I haven't done that, isn't it? Nonetheless, Will Self was OTM when he said "Not everyone who voted for Brexit is racist, but everyone who is racist voted for Brexit."
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john eden
male pale and stale
Do you remember how certain everyone was before the referendum?
Fireman and cops have been fighting on the streets of Paris these last few weeks and the Jilet Jaunes have been fairly vocal about their disatisfaction with Macron.
Brexit is not a one off aberration it is a sign of a wider crisis.
john eden
male pale and stale
That thing where you break up everything I say into discrete sentences makes it very difficult for me to continue the conversation. I'm not sure if that is the idea or not but it must be more work for you too?
"A pox on both their houses" is a standard political position where I come from, which I freely admit is marginal. If Chuka Umuna's craven and wrongheaded careerism is your side, then you are not on my side. Swinson was defending austerity in the run up to the election, which caused the premature deaths of hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people. These people are our enemy.
I've not assumed anything about that guy with the t-shirt. He might be someone who was interesting to talk to or not. Probably we would disagree on a lot but the fun there is finding some common ground.
I haven't ignored hate crimes in this thread:
But I would hope that my general record on this forum since 2004 might also be taken into consideration, your honour.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Out of interest, John, at what point do you think voters actually can be held responsible for the consequences of their voting choices? What about people who vote Tory and then get pissed off that public services are shit and the NHS is on its arse?
Because you've argued two completely contradictory points here:
* On the one hand, you've insisted that everyone who voted to leave knew exactly what they were doing, and it's totally not on for a snobbish cappuccino-sipping bastard like me to suggest they were in any way misled by either the government or the pro-Tory media ("brainwashed", in your words).
But:
* On the other hand, when Leave voters do get exactly what they voted for, and apparently knew they were voting for - i.e. the erection of barriers to trade and movement that didn't exist before, and all the consequences of that - and if some of them decide they're worse off than before, then it's also totally not on to say that they're brought it on themselves.
So which is it? Are voters informed, and therefore responsible? Or are they not responsible, and therefore not informed?
Because you've argued two completely contradictory points here:
* On the one hand, you've insisted that everyone who voted to leave knew exactly what they were doing, and it's totally not on for a snobbish cappuccino-sipping bastard like me to suggest they were in any way misled by either the government or the pro-Tory media ("brainwashed", in your words).
But:
* On the other hand, when Leave voters do get exactly what they voted for, and apparently knew they were voting for - i.e. the erection of barriers to trade and movement that didn't exist before, and all the consequences of that - and if some of them decide they're worse off than before, then it's also totally not on to say that they're brought it on themselves.
So which is it? Are voters informed, and therefore responsible? Or are they not responsible, and therefore not informed?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Retired British "expats" (because Brits are never immigrants, of course) in Spain who voted Leave are already regretting their decision:
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...xpats-spain-vote-leave-regret-decision-106711
Where do they fit in your analysis? If they knew what they were doing, then they need to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, don't they?
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...xpats-spain-vote-leave-regret-decision-106711
Where do they fit in your analysis? If they knew what they were doing, then they need to take responsibility for the consequences of their actions, don't they?
IdleRich
IdleRich
Yeah... some polls put Remain as high as 53% which is obviously just like a country (including the far right parties who previously argued for leaving but who've quietly dropped the idea) rejecting it to the extent that those in favour are essentially a rounding error. I get you've got a viewpoint you want to support but trying to suggest an equivalence between these polls doesn't exactly bolster your argument does it?
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
My position has always been that there is plenty you can criticise the EU for, even arguing from a progressive standpoint. It's far from perfect and doesn't serve everyone well. An informed and rational debate about the relative merits and demerits of membership would have been great. If we'd had a government that actually gave a shit, the UK could have used its considerable clout, as the country with the second-largest population and economy, to argue for change. Or some plausible alternatives to full membership could have been put forward and discussed, and then put to a national plebiscite.
Obviously, that's exactly what didn't happen.
You make a reasonable point about political integration happening in parallel with economic integration, but I think the UK was insulated from much of that, wasn't it? We were never at the 'heart of Europe', I mean we're literally separated from the rest of the continent by water, weren't members of the Eurozone or the Schengen area, and I think we had more opt-outs and special clauses than any other country, didn't we? We were arguably fairly peripheral to what's always been a Franco-German-led project even during the high summer of British Europhilia under Blair and Brown.
john eden
male pale and stale
Politicians are always to blame. How on earth is blaming the electorate going to work anyway? There’s a secret ballot and politicians lie.
The idea of some kind of collective sanction for voting is freaky totalitarian stuff which is kind of exciting coming from someone who was previously convinced that I was some kind of apologist for the gulags.
Also it is precisely through these small community campaigns - saving libraries or a local hospital, that people change. Which is why you don’t dismiss them based on where the put a cross in a box at a moment in time.
The idea of some kind of collective sanction for voting is freaky totalitarian stuff which is kind of exciting coming from someone who was previously convinced that I was some kind of apologist for the gulags.
Also it is precisely through these small community campaigns - saving libraries or a local hospital, that people change. Which is why you don’t dismiss them based on where the put a cross in a box at a moment in time.
john eden
male pale and stale
Well the wider point is that things aren’t rosy in the EU generally and France in particular. The EU is going to be forced to reform itself and the crisis will intensify. That may or may not result in France leaving the EU. But things can change quickly and unexpectedly.
IdleRich
IdleRich
Although there is some truth in what you (Luka) say. I think some elections affect you more or less directly. When it's for an MEP or whatever I do walk into the booth and vote (within certain parameters) on a whim. Same for some other things, maybe even a general election depending on what seat I'm voting for. But when there is a single issue that directly affects you you might expect a little more. You don't need to research much do you? It's kinda like... where do I live? In Spain. I should probably vote Remain.
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