Cancellations

[luka]

as John has said before we've all got friends and family with deplorable views

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

that's why you should support it Padraig

don't tell me what I should or shouldn't support

everything I've said is consistent with the principles I stated above

I think you'd do well to examine your enthusiasm for harnessing digital masses to do what you think it's best they do

 

[linebaugh]

we went over this awhile ago before you arrived, it's buried somewhere in the thread

there was disagreement but I and some other people believe there are a couple reasons there

1) "cancellation" doesn't work as well on elected officials, bestowed as they are with an official (even when dubious) legitimacy

resistance to from-below action (or mob rule, depending on POV) is an inherent part of checks and balances

2) the person being cancelled , and more importantly their supporters/audience, has to care about what they're being cancelled for

the Overton window is big here

more like, an individual's Overton window within the many overlapping Overton windows which make up public discourse

Al Franken, a dem, was cancelled though. Cant forget about all the slander thrown at the more progressive dems like illan omar for being anti-Semitic. Republicans dont really have this issue.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

f you are discounting the power of cancelation because it hasnt toppled the most powerful and influential and crooked bullies on the entire fucking planet yet

and stop attributing things to me that I didn't say, please, because I certainly did not say that

 

[haji]

I think it's ultimately better if someone can be rehabilitated rather than punished indefinitely. Obviously if you've dismembered and eaten a family of four or something then you're done, but I think you have to believe that most people can change otherwise the whole enterprise is pointless. You have to believe this stuff will make people reconsider their position and change for the better, or you have to come up with another way.

But it's also about proportionality - it matters less if your runofthemill dickhead is a racist judge than an unemployed racist

 

[haji]

don't tell me what I should or shouldn't support

everything I've said is consistent with the principles I stated above

I think you'd do well to examine your enthusiasm for harnessing digital masses to do what you think it's best they do

sorry

and stop attributing things to me that I didn't say, please, because I certainly did not say that

also sorry
have some good faith please Padraig

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Republicans dont really have this issue

exactly - the charges against them aren't as damaging

voluntary cancellation doesn't work below some level of mutual shared belief

I'm not talking about a case like Weinstein where there was clear criminal conduct as well

 

[haji]

But it's also about proportionality - it matters less if your runofthemill dickhead is a racist judge than an unemployed racist

I'm going to enjoy some strong hashish right now, and in future, if you find me in a role where that makes me a liability or a hypocrite then you need to cancel me

 

[haji]

exactly - the charges against them aren't as damaging

voluntary cancellation doesn't work below some level of mutual shared belief

I'm not talking about a case like Weinstein where there was clear criminal conduct as well

what about kavanaugh?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

have some good faith please Padraig

I haven't said anything not in good faith.

I take all your positions seriously, and I try not to put words in your mouth. all I ask for is the same in return.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Nina made neo-nazi symbols in a video she posted online, i don't think that's compatible with her role as a lecturer, much as i like her personally (what little i know of her) and pity and regret her situation. i'd have fired her, and i'd be happy for my decision to be reviewed and overturned f on the facts i was wrong

Uhh, well what I'd heard is that she made an 'OK' sign, which may have a significance in some esoteric corner of the far-right world, but is rather more widely known as the 'OK' sign!

 

[linebaugh]

Kavanaugh got seated though. What do you mean? Kavanaugh would be an example of why this is ineffective.

 

[haji]

what about kavanaugh?

also Shamima Begum

 

[haji]

I'm going to enjoy some strong hashish right now, and in future, if you find me in a role where that makes me a liability or a hypocrite then you need to cancel me

my argumentation may become less cogent and vehement though

 

[john eden]

Uhh, well what I'd heard is that she made an 'OK' sign, which may have a significance in some esoteric corner of the far-right world, but is rather more widely known as the 'OK' sign!

Well you heard wrong. But you can presumably still watch the video rather than relying on rumour.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what about kavanaugh?

"clear" wasn't the right word - I mean enough for a prosecutor to bring a criminal case

which isn't an argument about the very obvious limits of the justice system especially in re the confluence of powerful men and sexual assault

what I mean to say is, you can't cancel someone who doesn't agree with being cancelled as long enough of their supporters continue to support them

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

which is where Overton windows come in

tho they don't shift in one direction, they go back and forth like a tug of war

 

[haji]

Kavanaugh got seated though. What do you mean? Kavanaugh would be an example of why this is ineffective.

which i guess can be said to be proportional, as i mentioned above, to the severity of his offeces and the available evidence, his reputation is in tatters apart from with the orthodox republican headbangers, did his wife leave him?

(obvs i dfer to actual US people who know about this)

 

[Mr. Tea]

where are your concrete examples please, we'll pick them apart like the chaff that they are

I've given them already but feel free to ignore them. As I said, one of them was in an article you posted. If you want more, you could try googling "people fired for tweets" - there are lists upon lists upon lists.

people fired for tweets - Google Search

www.google.com

Some of them are examples of people tweeting opinions, complaints or jokes that anyone here would agree are extremely objectionable, while others are more open to interpretation. Now if you were taking the position that "Yes people can be fired for a single remark they've made, and I think that's fine because in at least some cases they will have deserved it for being racist/homophobic etc., and if in other cases it's an overreaction or misinterpretation then it's tough tits, it's collateral damage", that would be one thing. But you're simply claiming that a phenomenon doesn't exist when it clearly does.

In fact I get the impression you're arguing in bad faith here so I'm out.

 

[haji]

which is where Overton windows come in

tho they don't shift in one direction, they go back and forth like a tug of war

true, it's been sliding trumpwards for a few years until made some big jumps back with metoo, blm,