Cancellations

[Mr. Tea]

but pretending that you can just get sacked for thought crime or saying the wrong thing is not actually true

And yet, it has clearly happened. I've given concrete examples. What about Nina Power, who used to post here? Whatever you think about what she said, the fact remains that someone who didn't like her opinions made a lot of fuss until the magazine she was writing for caved in and sacked her.

You're so invested in your side of the culture war that you're responding to any facts that don't align with your narrative by yelling "FAKE NEWS!" and putting your fingers in your ears.

 

[haji]

I embrace "Cancel culture" as a means to accountability where other routes are blocked,
and I am fairly confident that this tends to apply in situations of powerful bastards

 

[john eden]

She didn’t have a permanent contract with the magazine, did she?

 

[haji]

And yet, it has clearly happened. I've given concrete examples. What about Nina Power, who used to post here? Whatever you think about what she said, the fact remains that someone who didn't like her opinions made a lot of fuss until the magazine she was writing for caved in and sacked her.

You're so invested in your side of the culture war that you're responding to any facts that don't align with your narrative by yelling "FAKE NEWS!" and putting your fingers in your ears.

Nina made neo-nazi symbols in a video she posted online, i don't think that's compatible with her role as a lecturer, much as i like her personally (what little i know of her) and pity and regret her situation. i'd have fired her, and i'd be happy for my decision to be reviewed and overturned f on the facts i was wrong

 

[linebaugh]

This is veering into “They’ll arrest you these days just for saying you’re English“ territory.

I dont see this.

My qualms with cancel culture is that from my view its not actually all that great at holding the elite accountable for their actions and has a punching down effect, which is informed by my in person experiences of lefty groups being impotent, toxic vats. Were all cool and level headed here online but I have a hunch most of lean introverted in person.

 

[version]

depends if they are in jail or not, depends if they are a horrible racist who got their job unjustly, depends if they repent , genuinely about something that genuinely they did wrong

I'm not talking about people who've been imprisoned and neither are you since you've said cancellations are a response to failings on the part of the judicial system. I'm talking about run-of-the-mill dickheads who get cancelled and fired and yeah, probably show no remorse. What do we do with an unrepentant racist with no job?

 

[haji]

And yet, it has clearly happened. I've given concrete examples. What about Nina Power, who used to post here? Whatever you think about what she said, the fact remains that someone who didn't like her opinions made a lot of fuss until the magazine she was writing for caved in and sacked her.

You're so invested in your side of the culture war that you're responding to any facts that don't align with your narrative by yelling "FAKE NEWS!" and putting your fingers in your ears.

where are your concrete examples please, we'll pick them apart like the chaff that they are

 

[luka]

I embrace "Cancel culture" as a means to accountability where other routes are blocked,
and I am fairly confident that this tends to apply in situations of powerful bastards

Pitchforks and flaming torches at Draculas castle is ok with me but what's being discussed as cancel culture doesn't stop there. It's a general mania for denouncement and mob justice and more often than not its used in a disengenous way, out of malice.

 

[luka]

If you wanted to fire everyone who held views which depart from the general guardian opinion column norm most of the country would be out of work for one reason or another.

 

[haji]

I'm not talking about people who've been imprisoned and neither are you since you've said cancellations are a response to failings on the part of the judicial system. I'm talking about run-of-the-mill dickheads who get cancelled and fired and yeah, probably show no remorse. What do we do with an unrepentant racist with no job?

As a society, we need to improve, they are part of that, we all have our prejudices and need to overcome them, seriously

Pitchforks and flaming torches at Draculas castle is ok with me but what's being discussed as cancel culture doesn't stop there. It's a general mania for denouncement and mob justice and more often than not its used in a disengenous way, out of malice.

Yeah this is what Padraig is on about too. But that's not what happened with Weinstein and Epstein though? or is it? can we make sense of that please? or do we think they should have been left alone cos we're scared of vampires?

 

[haji]

If you wanted to fire everyone who held views which depart from the general guardian opinion column norm most of the country would be out of work for one reason or another.

i think justice always needs to be proportionate, that's why i'm less concerned about Versions run of the mill dickhead

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the difference between 'accountability' and 'cancel culture.'

a good distinction

accountability is good. I'm fine with people being held accountable. being held accountable is the flip side (responsibility) of freedom.

and I wouldn't argue that cancellation hasn't done unalloyed good in situations where institutional options fail

(which are many, because institutional options are obviously overwhelmingly stacked in favor of the powerful)

what I - and others, it seems - disagree with is the authoritarian tendency of deciding one knows where the masses should be lead

and the casual dismissal of mob rule - and the possibility of false positives - is very "can't make an omelette without breaking eggs"

think about it like this - would you (meaning anyone) be OK with such a haphazard approach to cancellation if people were instead, being shot?

 

[john eden]

I dont see this.

My qualms with cancel culture is that from my view its not actually all that great at holding the elite accountable for their actions and has a punching down effect, which is informed by my in person experiences of lefty groups being impotent, toxic vats. Were all cool and level headed here online but I have a hunch most of lean introverted in person.

Well that’s an interesting perspective. I’d say that #metoo (which is part of cancel culture) has had some individual victories over dickhead powerful men.

Neoliberalism can’t hold the rich and powerful, as a class, accountable.

But yeah there is a lot that is bad in some parts of the left. Best avoided.

 

[haji]

I dont see this.

My qualms with cancel culture is that from my view its not actually all that great at holding the elite accountable for their actions and has a punching down effect, which is informed by my in person experiences of lefty groups being impotent, toxic vats. Were all cool and level headed here online but I have a hunch most of lean introverted in person.

It's a thing for real - it's the only argument against CC people are exercising here
I am contending that accountability is generally broken at the upper echelons of our societies and CC is as good as we've got to redress the balance right now

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

do we think they should have been left alone cos we're scared of vampires?

no one - or I'm not - is arguing for a total rejection of from below accountability

I'm arguing that it should be applied more judiciously and with a healthy wariness of its potential dangers

not a gleeful, headlong, means justify the end rush

 

[version]

My concern's that the mob does its thing and moves on while the far right hoover up a bunch of unemployed racists who now have even less to lose.

 

[linebaugh]

a good distinction

accountability is good. I'm fine with people being held accountable. being held accountable is the flip side (responsibility) of freedom.

and I wouldn't argue that cancellation hasn't done unalloyed good in situations where institutional options fail

(which are many, because institutional options are obviously overwhelmingly stacked in favor of the powerful)

what I - and others, it seems - disagree with is the authoritarian tendency of deciding one knows where the masses should be lead

and the casual dismissal of mob rule - and the possibility of false positives - is very "can't make an omelette without breaking eggs"

think about it like this - would you (meaning anyone) be OK with such a haphazard approach to cancellation if people were instead, being shot?

we agree bud I think cancel culture is stupid. If cancel culture is to mean the negative flip side of accountability.

 

[haji]

It's a thing for real - it's the only argument against CC people are exercising here
I am contending that accountability is generally broken at the upper echelons of our societies and CC is as good as we've got to redress the balance right now

False acusations are an issue with CC, especially if you believe that the mob are idiots

 

[john eden]

My concern's that the mob does its thing and moves on while the far right hoover up a bunch of unemployed racists who now have even less to lose.

Well the only solution to that is organising in non dickhead ways in our workplaces and communities.

 

[haji]

False acusations are an issue with CC, especially if you believe that the mob are idiots

But the internet is a form of radical mass transparency, that we can exploit