The Record Industry's Decline

Chef Napalm

Lost in the Supermarket
I've more or less ditched my mp3 player, the battery was fucked on it anyway.
i get my pleasure from listening to records in my house usually now. i like music alot and i tend to get more pleasure from listening it waft through my house either listening to albums or mixing pon decks.
uncanny. that's like me. exactly like me.
i too am getting disenchanted with constant music on mp3 players.
recently, i've started lisetning to more radio tham i have done in years, and i think that's probably a reaction against having so much control over what music to listen to: i now want the music to be in someone else's hands, for them to make the choices. also, with radio you're involved in a kind of communal listening experience, rather than the cut-off private world of mp3 players.
Thank you gentlemen for making my point. We as aficionados, or in mms’s and edward’s case industry insiders, are exposed to far more music than the average joe. As we have reached our saturation point, so too will the masses. It is, as they say, a matter of time. In my view, the way forward for both independent and major labels is to capitalize on this saturation by continuing to make physical formats available, even if only in limited quantities, and to continue to support radio, whether it be internet, satellite, or conventional emf types. I submit that the only viable physical formats are vinyl and CD. Wax will persist.

We are left with poorly mastered CDs (the loudness wars), a shocking drop in the quality of vinyl pressings and mastering (some places are still good but it's harder and harder and more and more expensive.... just cos it's vinyl doesn't mean it's any cop), and mp3 which is great for on-the-move headphones stuff and sharing knowledge (ie you download it, then if you like it you get the vinyl/CD). This could change as WAV quality downloads become more feasible.
Interesting point regarding the quality of vinyl releases. It had honestly not occurred to me that corners were being cut. Of course it was inevitable; with declining marketshare comes the desire to make things more cost-effective even to the detriment of the product. 180g vinyl is a wonderful thing, but who can afford to make it? Very few, I imagine. Who can afford mastering at The Exchange? Again, very few. What’s my point? I dunno, but it seems all the more reason to make sure that we keep the good shops in business.

I’m going to go and bump my Vinyl thread.
 

mms

sometimes
I can think of a worst case scenario where it would defintely be unethical :)

In part it was tightness, in part it's being annoyed at the iPod's ubiquity. Also, I enjoy paying attention to the environment when I'm out and about - maybe I won't bother now.

I think you're totally on the money ('scuse pun) in stating that there is now a much more limited range of economic opportunity for new artists. That's sad.

yeah i enjoy being alert to my environment too.

its not really the range of economic opportunity that bothers me, although anyone that does have feelings they want to be a big star thru music must be wondering what the other options are, and thinking about hiding the talent and hunger under a laurel, it's the fact that music and musicians seem to be forced into places they may not want to go simply because there aren't that many other options. It's interesting that paris hilton failed as a music star, but is good at being a star for nothing, like the reverse of 30 years is encapsulated in her, that seems to be a current trend, pete doherty and lots of the indie darlings are better at being celebs than musicians too.

There are two things that worry me in that the medium for carrying information is evolving more than the information itself, (the various developing nodes of internet music use sand availability ) and that information simply reflects back on the medium rather than on the larger culture of music as a thing thats alive.

It's also like information having gone through a liquid stage and has now become stream, millions of non-descript opaque droplets vying for attention.

Scuse me if this is abstract bullshit its just me riffing.
 
Last edited:
Scuse me if this is abstract bullshit its just me riffing.

like MC Duke.... :)

Here's another story about the future of vinyl - on a few occassions when I've been ready to cut vinyl, the cutting room has phoned to cancel because the lathe's broken and they can't get it fixed for 2 weeks. Since Neumann (lathe manufacturers) closed their doors, and Georg Neumann died a while back, there is apparently one ex-employee left in Europe who knows the machines well enough to repair them, and he basically has a full time job going round cutting rooms all over Europe keeping their machines going. So when he retires... those machines are wonderfully engineered but they can't go on forever.
Maybe there's a training and job opportunity for someone there.....


We as aficionados, or in mms’s and edward’s case industry insiders

please include me in the afficionados! Even if the "industry" ever wanted me, I would do everything in my power to stay out and do my own thing. Luckily they don't want me anyway....
 

barry_abs

lil' beyutch
In my view, the way forward for both independent and major labels is to capitalize on this saturation by continuing to make physical formats available
the majors will struggle to release any format if they cease to exist.

the digital revolution is here and gaining momentum.. our kids are growing up with it - what is vinyl to them?
 
Yes you're right but it's a big shame that sound quality is going out of the window.

There is a real sense that something good is being lost from the world - the ability and desire to make amazing-sounding recordings as opposed to ones that sound loud coming out of PC speakers at 128kbps.....
 

barry_abs

lil' beyutch
Yes you're right but it's a big shame that sound quality is going out of the window.
when did that happen?

vinyl may be analogue but it crackles.. and you need a transit to carry your collection around..

There is a real sense that something good is being lost from the world
only to the hi-fi geek.
 
Only shit vinyl crackles. Good vinyl is something that is disappearing fast but it doesn't crackle if you take care of it. I posted about that already. That is what I mean by saying that it seems certain knowledge is getting lost, the skill of making amazing vinyl is becoming very rare and we are left with poor-quality stuff.

Sound quality on CDs (and mp3) went out the window as A&R men and radio pluggers decreed that every CD must sound subjectively as loud as every previous CD or preferably a bit louder. This leads to very compressed and clipped (ie distorted) audio. Do a google for "loudness wars" if you are interested.

I am not saying that vinyl is the only good format, personally I think CDs and (not-too-lossy)audio files are capable of sounding extremely good and are much more portable as you say.

But the techniques of recording music well and mastering it well are being lost due to corner-cutting which I think stems from the shrinking profit margins of record labels and so on.
I'm with you if you think it won't be a day too soon when the music industry dies a death but it's sad to think that nobody will ever devote the money, skill and effort to making a record that went into classic records of the 70s and 80s.

(sound quality only matters)
only to the hi-fi geek.

I imagine you're just being contrary to get your point across, but as has already been pointed out, there's a world of difference between people who appreciate music and listen to it attentively, and those who think spending £1000 on speaker cables gives the sound more "air" or something.

If you can't hear the difference between a squashed modern CD or a 128kbps mp3 and a well-looked-after piece of vinyl from 20 years ago, you must be quite deaf or just not interested in sound.

I accept that some people just like lyrics or melodies but it doesn't make those who value more subtle aspects of music such as the sounds of the instruments etc "geeks".
 

barry_abs

lil' beyutch
i understand about the loudness wars.. first read about it some years ago in an article about the death of dynamic range.

I accept that some people just like lyrics or melodies but it doesn't make those who value more subtle aspects of music such as the sounds of the instruments etc "geeks".

geek is not an insulting term.. brother, i am a card-carrying geek! a geek is passionate about his field of interest.. often at the cost of a healthy, balanced lifestyle!

i stand by what i say.. the margin of sound quality between vinyl and cd is detectable only by hifi geek.. not many people would detect it, blindfolded on a Daz doorstep challenge..

however, they *would* detect the differing mastering techniques of now and yesteryear.. that i don't argue - mastering nowadays is squashed for CD and radio.. however, i'm not fussed - i happen to quite like it full on and loud! it has its place.. not in the cinema though, obviously.. dynamic range is crucial there.
 

DJ PIMP

Well-known member
I'm with you if you think it won't be a day too soon when the music industry dies a death but it's sad to think that nobody will ever devote the money, skill and effort to making a record that went into classic records of the 70s and 80s.
I feel you - high-end analogue from the 70s was the pinnacle of recording in terms of capturing musicality and ambiance, but for so much music from the past 20-30 years this hasn't really been so relevant. The changes in technology and production style/standards tell the story of what's happened in the world as much as the music itself...

I didn't have a point to make, just rambling.
 
I was perhaps fumbling a bit... I agree that a well-mastered CD is just about as good as nearly all vinyl for most purposes. But most CDs at the moment sound awful, not because of the limitations of CDs but because of the mastering, not just loudness but also trends in adding a lot of high end, because you can do that to digital audio without generating the kind of distortion you would on a record. Most vinyl these days sounds not so great as well.

I have been really enjoying the last couple of years' aphex twin stuff on 180g classical pressings, wouldn't you like to hear a Plastician tune mastered and pressed up properly?
I know it's just made on a computer but there's no reason it should be compressed to shit or crackly.
 

barry_abs

lil' beyutch
not just loudness but also trends in adding a lot of high end
yeah, i agree.. my mums old elton john cds sound soft and dull, whereas her will young is bold and sharp!

I have been really enjoying the last couple of years' aphex twin stuff on 180g classical pressings
that's a coincidence! last night, as we were having this conversation i was flicking through my aphex stuff deleting 90% of it (mainly old analogue bubblebaths).. i've spent the last few weeks pruning my library.. for how rarely i listen to aphex, half a gig was overkill.

i do prefer the more recent aphex works.. "go on, give us a snare rush!".. it sounds like the kind of material the radiophonic workshop would have come up with if you locked them in a cage and fed them human flesh.
 

Dusty

Tone deaf
Out of interest, how many people here actually buy mp3s/FLAC on a regular basis?

We all speak about the growing digital revolution - yet for many people that simply means stealing music over P2P.

Assuming that paying for music is still the basis for the music industry, regardless of format, has the digital revolution really made that big an impact - are we happy to fork out for data? We all know plenty of people with ipods full of music, but I don't know anyone who bought any of that music digitally, its all ripped CDs or stolen.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
This thread bring up lots of unanswered points for me...

1. How there's never the voice of the Majors in this debate. Anyone know any A&Rs ballsy enough to defend their business model?

2. Amid all this doom n gloom, the ultimate end: do we think it's actually possible or likely that the entire music industry will collapse leaving only not-for-profit artists?

3. Quantatative data: OK so Gutta and MMS are ditching their MP3 players, and I've never owned one (got iTunes tho). But how reprasentative are we? Are overall sales up or down? MP3 obviously decrease sales but increase exposure. MySpace is oversaturated but more accessible than commercial radio - how are we actually able to measure the impact of these quantatatively?

4. Woebot's point about veg/making your own music. While nice, this sounds like it's made by someone who's not made music. Listening to your own music and listening to everyone elses are just totally different emotional experiences, you simply can't easily dissociate from the granular details and the process, nor do you get the 'emotions' other people do from it.

5. excessive consumption: definitely a key issue. If you have a lifetime's music at your fingertips, how can you realistically expect to become musically attached to any one piece? (To me this is why I think I do my 'currently feeling' lists, because they're (to me) pockets of quality amid all the streams of data).

6. Change and progress. Surely we're all baised by how we first made emotional attachments to music? So ten year olds in ten years time will be nostalgic for MP3s etc... people need to dissociate the absolute properties of the format from the emotional attachment, because the latter can be formed and re-formed.

am sure there's more i'll think of...
 

barry_abs

lil' beyutch
Out of interest, how many people here actually buy mp3s/FLAC on a regular basis?
i mainly "steal" music, then buy the stuff i like.. occassionally i buy purely from browsing and previewing in itunes.. sometimes i can only find the stuff i want on the internet.. sometimes only on itunes.

often i'm put off buying from itunes because i can't be arsed with the hassle of burning protected AAC then ripping it back in, just to get the music on my phone/rio or car mp3 players.. apple have addressed this with iTunes Plus


We all speak about the growing digital revolution - yet for many people that simply means stealing music over P2P.
yep.. hence one of the solutions from the rolling stone article being "legitimise P2P".

bittorrent filesharing accounts for 35% of all internet traffic.. don't tell me you never copied music off your mates, or taped the top 40 when you were a kid? same difference, larger scale - blame the internet.. effectively it's every kids tape deck connected together.. cue sharing en masse.. or thievery, as the industry has always branded it.. they're just bitter as it's dropkicked their business model out of the ring and murdered it's wife and son.. 4000 jobs lost amongst majors since napster.. back to square one.
 
Last edited:

Chef Napalm

Lost in the Supermarket
This thread bring up lots of unanswered points for me...

1. How there's never the voice of the Majors in this debate. Anyone know any A&Rs ballsy enough to defend their business model?
That would be an awesome read.

2. Amid all this doom n gloom, the ultimate end: do we think it's actually possible or likely that the entire music industry will collapse leaving only not-for-profit artists?
I don't. There's money to be made, just less of it. Gone are the days of platinum albums.

3. Quantatative data: OK so Gutta and MMS are ditching their MP3 players, and I've never owned one (got iTunes tho). But how reprasentative are we? Are overall sales up or down? MP3 obviously decrease sales but increase exposure. MySpace is oversaturated but more accessible than commercial radio - how are we actually able to measure the impact of these quantatatively?
We could start a poll, I guess.

4. Woebot's point about veg/making your own music. While nice, this sounds like it's made by someone who's not made music. Listening to your own music and listening to everyone elses are just totally different emotional experiences, you simply can't easily dissociate from the granular details and the process, nor do you get the 'emotions' other people do from it.
Agreed. As simon said, it's nice to give someone else the control.

6. Change and progress. Surely we're all baised by how we first made emotional attachments to music? So ten year olds in ten years time will be nostalgic for MP3s etc... people need to dissociate the absolute properties of the format from the emotional attachment, because the latter can be formed and re-formed.
While I can see your point about nostalgia, I didn't start buying records until I was in university. Sure, my mom and dad had a record collection, but as a child of the 80s I should have more of an emotional attachment to CDs than records.

Here's another story about the future of vinyl - on a few occassions when I've been ready to cut vinyl, the cutting room has phoned to cancel because the lathe's broken and they can't get it fixed for 2 weeks. Since Neumann (lathe manufacturers) closed their doors, and Georg Neumann died a while back, there is apparently one ex-employee left in Europe who knows the machines well enough to repair them, and he basically has a full time job going round cutting rooms all over Europe keeping their machines going. So when he retires... those machines are wonderfully engineered but they can't go on forever.
Maybe there's a training and job opportunity for someone there.....
Holy sweet mother of crap! Where do I sign up?
 
Last edited:

Gabba Flamenco Crossover

High Sierra Skullfuck
it also makes me think that for the TRUE music head the only way to keep a sacred relationship with music any more is to make it for one's own consumption. sort of like growing one's own vegetables.

Well, not making it for yourself. That's like holding conversations with yourself. But I like the idea of making music only for people that you know personally. This is like the electronic underground returning to a kind of folk industry stage, where the line between artist and audience is erased - clusters of artists develop around certain styles with less closely aligned members hopping from group to group. Hey, the future of music is atomic theory!

I tell you, the best thing I ever did in my life was to accept that I would never make money from music. It freed me to do something genuinely productive with my life, instead of hanging around in dead end jobs waiting for my music career to 'happen'. And now I make music with people I know in mind, rather than to some abstract commercial imperitive, and I've improved light years as a producer.

it's sad to think that nobody will ever devote the money, skill and effort to making a record that went into classic records of the 70s and 80s.

Couple of things. First, let's not forget that while the great studios of yesteryear were used to make some superb records, they also made a lot of fucking terrible ones, while talented artists were unable to get thier work on tape because A&R men controlled the keys to the studio. I think we take digital recording technology and the access it gives us for granted these days

Second, you don't need a technically pristine recording to document a performance or make an exciting record: no one listens to old blues recordings and thinks 'shit, I wish Alan Lomax had done this on a 48 track Neve console'. No one listens to hardcore records and critiques the snare sound.

And I disagree that the techniques of making great recordings are dying out. More people than ever before are going to college to study music technology and learning the basic principles of mic placement, acoustics and signal processing. The increase in gigging and the lack of money available from major labels will mean that more artists are coming into the studio fresh, focussed, well rehearsed, communicating easily and realistic about what they want to achieve. Making a good record in those circumstances is not difficult. The 'voodoo' of the great producers of the past was in taking a group of fucked up individuals who were barely speaking to one another, and were too sidetracked by internal politics and money to have given much thought to the music, and somehow getting a great record out the other side. Which is rare skill, definitely, but it only existed becase of the unnatural major label enviroment that surrounded it.

I agree that mastering is unnaturally loud these days, but who cares? If people are dumb enough to want that, then fuck 'em. What matters is what's on the original recording. If that's OK, then someone in the future can always go back and do a new master when sanity prevails.
 
GFC;
Couple of things...

I absolutely agree with you on recording quality, I wouldn't say that music MUST be super big studio productions, I mostly listen to techno and old house records made in a bedroom. I was just saying I think it's a shame that that particular option (big studio, big producer) is going to disappear for artists who might've been offered it 20 years ago.

You say you don't think those skills are being lost because of recording schools... I wasn't trying to say that nobody wants to learn recording skills, more that there won't be the money in the record industry to pay for studio time that involves professional people who want to earn a wage in line with the years they have spent training and making records and getting a rep, money to pay for top quality people and equipment etc. Studios are closing all over the place because the labels can't afford them any more.

Also, I hope you're right about mastering and un-mastered master tapes existing. It would be lush if albums were released in 2 formats - mastered and unmastered or "radio" and "hifi" versions.
Can't see it happening though, it would just mean record labels spending extra money.

(incidentally, I do think the people who made hardcore records thought hard about things like snare sounds though (at least the best ones did). It's a myth that anyone with an S950 could make a great hardcore record......)

:)
 

DJ PIMP

Well-known member
It's a myth that anyone with an S950 could make a great hardcore record......)
Is it what! At the time I was inspired by the DIY aesthetic. It's taken me years to understand just how skilled the top artists/producers were.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
creative energies might just shift, gradually, to focus on another end, in a different way, away from endless fussing over the construction of precious products frozen in time, with a process entirely divorced from the drive and impulse to make music in the first place. and that might not be a bad thing - perhaps get back to how music was made before it was bought and sold in little packets.
 
Top