Election 2020

[luka]

big boys discourse is universal on this forum and beyond but when i do it apparently i beleive in aliens or reptiles or Jews. very weird.

 

[luka]

broadly speaking the people can do what they want provivded they stay on the reservation but if they do something naughty like getting behind a gough whitlam or a jeremey corbyn they get their toys taken away.

 

[john eden]

Let's not forget that @john eden also believes in capital punishment. But to dismiss the idea that there are powerful people tending the strings regardless of religion, creed or colour is to have one's head firmly stuck up one's arse.

For clarity this would appear to be the post that patty has simplified into me “believing in capital punishment”.

In virtually all cases under the current system I would oppose the death penalty for reasons which I hope are self evident.

I favour restorative justice as the default.

I’m unclear why patty has brought religion into this as I have not done that.

 

[luka]

cant beleive John Eden has called for beheadings of his political enemies in stoke newington. awful. this changes my views on the man. i cant condone beheading frankly.

 

[Leo]

the bit about trump and corbyn being opposed by big boys by both sides, ie traditional big-money GOP and labor backers, is a difference from other elections, that usually doesn't happen. but in the case of trump, I imagine it's because he's not an actual conservative republican. he voted Dem and donated to Dems (even Hillary!) for decades before glomming on the the GOP because that's the party where he saw the opening. in a sense, trump is the quintessential RINO. Some traditional GOP factions opposed him because they felt he was destroying the GOP, which is what they cared more about.

I know much less about the corbyn situation and what motivated traditional labor backers to oppose him.

 

[Mr. Tea]

this is all ackowledged by everyone. people say labour has to suck up to the mail and murdoch if they want to rule.

That's the popular narrative but I'm not convinced by it. Labour won such a big majority in 1997 that a lot of people think they would have won anyway even without Murdoch's support. They had a mix of policies that were popular and a leader who was charismatic and likeable and not, at that stage, obviously a narcissistic psycho with a Messiah complex.

I mean I'm sure it helped, but I don't know if it was the deciding factor. And the Sun sells about a third as many papers today as it did back then.

 

[Mr. Tea]

cant beleive John Eden has called for beheadings of his political enemies in stoke newington. awful. this changes my views on the man. i cant condone beheading frankly.

What's your favourite method for enacting a policy of KILL KILL KILL?

 

[pattycakes_]

It is possible that in the great battle of understanding or obscuring what I have written that there are powerful people on both sides. But as nobody seems to know this for real or can identify who they are there seems little point in talking about it except for the shits and giggles of conspiratorial Lols.

If you actually did the homework I set you, you would see that there are indeed named architects of the fabric of our current reality. Most of the groundwork was done long ago and has splintered and morphed in infinite ways which makes for a perfect smokescreen. But it's all there. The Rockefellers and Carnegies of the world are some of the main players. Of course me mentioning these names triggers the conspiracy alarm, but if anyone could be bothered just reading the first chapter of that book, which is actually in part researched and quoted from the minutes of actual meetings between those families and others, you would see that most of society and its workings were all planned out. And school, the system that takes us from our parents at our most important developmental stage in life and programs us to fit in to the planned society, and conveniently deals with those who don't, is the root of it all. No need for illuminatis when you see it explained as clearly as it is in that book.


@Mr. Tea frothed:

Strawman much? Can you point out where I said "powerful interest groups don't exist"?



What I actually said was that events such as the outcome of elections are not entirely determined in advance. Trump could still have won even an unrigged election last year if enough people had voted for him, regardless of what @luka's "big boys" may have wanted. I'm sure many "big boys" weren't happy about his win in 2016, but it happened anyway.



Same with the Brexit referendum - a surprise result that pleased a faction of powerful people while displeasing another, probably larger, faction of powerful people. But it was a narrow result that could easily have gone the other way.

Thanks for going to the trouble of writing all that and making it about you, but I was talking to @john eden

Who I believe believes in capital punishment because he posted this a while ago

 

[pattycakes_]

Oh and the religion thing is because whenever people get into this conversation about powerful rich people running the world it often comes back to antisemitism and the Jews have been mentioned, so I highlighted the word religion because in the end I don't think it really matters what religion you are once you're past a certain level of wealth and influence. It's a red flag no matter what the historical implications are.

 

[john eden]

If you actually did the homework I set you, you would see that there are indeed named architects of the fabric of our current reality. Most of the groundwork was done long ago and has splintered and morphed in infinite ways which makes for a perfect smokescreen. But it's all there. The Rockefellers and Carnegies of the world are some of the main players. Of course me mentioning these names triggers the conspiracy alarm, but if anyone could be bothered just reading the first chapter of that book, which is actually in part researched and quoted from the minutes of actual meetings between those families and others, you would see that most of society and its workings were all planned out. And school, the system that takes us from our parents at our most important developmental stage in life and programs us to fit in to the planned society, and conveniently deals with those who don't, is the root of it all. No need for illuminatis when you see it explained as clearly as it is in that book.


@Mr. Tea frothed:


Thanks for going to the trouble of writing all that and making it about you, but I was talking to @john eden

Who I believe believes in capital punishment because he posted this a while ago

View attachment 6184

Seriously? You think that this funny song which in no way mentions judicial sentencing or state killing is a profound statement that underpins my politics?

And you think I’m going to bother to read your homework so my thinking can reach these levels? Riiiiiight.

 

[pattycakes_]

I'd say posting it right after tea's post suggests that you think it's right to kill certain people, yes.

I never expected you to read the book, but if you or anyone ever wanted to know who 'they' are, you can actually find out. But yeah, would never actually expect you or Tea to want to find that stuff out.

 

[john eden]

Oh and the religion thing is because whenever people get into this conversation about powerful rich people running the world it often comes back to antisemitism and the Jews have been mentioned, so I highlighted the word religion because in the end I don't think it really matters what religion you are once you're past a certain level of wealth and influence. It's a red flag no matter what the historical implications are.

I recall pulling you up on being overly concerned about the Rothschilds before in which case I think raising the spectre of anti Semitism is reasonable.

Nobody has done that on this thread I as far as I know, but clearly yes, the claptrap that goes with conspiratorial thinking can lead in that direction.

It is one pitfall amongst many of personifying the forces that shape the world in specific individuals or shadowy cabals rather than classes, systems, organisations, etc.

 

[john eden]

I'd say posting it right after tea's post suggests that you think it's right to kill certain people, yes.

I never expected you to read the book, but if you or anyone ever wanted to know who 'they' are, you can actually find out. But yeah, would never actually expect you or Tea to want to find that stuff out.

Killing people is the same as capital punishment because I am the state is it?

Every day is indeed a school day it seems.

 

[pattycakes_]

Ah so as long as its a member of the public you're OK with it? Sorry for getting the terminology wrong, I didn't get too much schoolin' but I guess we're clear now. And I too have learned something new, ta!

 

[john eden]

Yes yes that has been my secret agenda all along and I would have gotten away with it too were it not for your forensic interrogation of my music tastes. You clown.

 

[luka]

That's the popular narrative but I'm not convinced by it. Labour won such a big majority in 1997 that a lot of people think they would have won anyway even without Murdoch's support. They had a mix of policies that were popular and a leader who was charismatic and likeable and not, at that stage, obviously a narcissistic psycho with a Messiah complex.

I mean I'm sure it helped, but I don't know if it was the deciding factor. And the Sun sells about a third as many papers today as it did back then.

all that is possible/true. but i dont think it matters to my argument. and lets cool the temperature down a bit on this thread shall we

 

[DannyL]

you dont think there are any powerful people in the world? thats a strange beleif John.

I know this conversation has doubtless moved on but I believe that abstract and impersonal forces affect the world more than individuals do. You can see us alluding to this in a very small way on the Discogs thread.

 

[luka]

I know this conversation has doubtless moved on but I believe that abstract and impersonal forces affect the world more than individuals do. You can see us alluding to this in a very small way on the Discogs thread.

i know this is the kind of thing people say but im not convinced it means anything much. its a platitude isnt it.

 

[luka]

its 'true' in a very broad kind of a way just as its true in a very broad kind of a way to say that abstract and impersonal forces move through and express themselves through individuals

 

[DannyL]

its 'true' in a very broad kind of a way just as its true in a very broad kind of a way to say that abstract and impersonal forces move through and express themselves through individuals

i know this is the kind of thing people say but im not convinced it means anything much. its a platitude isnt it.

No. I know exactly where I get these ideas from, who I'm referring to etc. I'd refer you to the books if I thought you'd read 'em.