padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
those kinds of questions without answers are what makes talking about things like this interesting
The Middlebrow
It did birth a lot of things, but it just feels 'wrong' to ascribe artistic merit to an act of terrorism, even if you can see the argument. It's crossing the rubicon.
luka
Well-known member
You are worse than Stalin. It's no exaggeration.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I agree
but I do think it's an argument that can be made, tho hopefully much better and more thoughtfully than Stockhausen did
only for intent tho, not merit. merit is a completely different thing.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
if a serial killer views his killings as art, does it make those killings somehow worse?
and/or, does it devalue what most other people would recognize as art - i.e., not murder?
I don't think so, but someone could disagree
just because a serial killer views his killing as art, doesn't mean you or I or anyone else agrees with him
and/or, does it devalue what most other people would recognize as art - i.e., not murder?
I don't think so, but someone could disagree
just because a serial killer views his killing as art, doesn't mean you or I or anyone else agrees with him
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
it's unfortunate that public discourse on the relationship between violence and the aestheticization of violence is generally so hysterical in this country (and the UK, I'd imagine)
because it's a serious topic that deserves serious discussion, by anyone who cares about violence in the society they live in
rather than the usual lazy blaming of TV, video games, etc for societal ills
because it's a serious topic that deserves serious discussion, by anyone who cares about violence in the society they live in
rather than the usual lazy blaming of TV, video games, etc for societal ills
Leo
Well-known member
does the middlebrow involve conscious or unconscious striving? could be both.
I know people with thoroughly middlebrow tastes who sincerely think they are in fact informed and, in their minds, ahead of the cultural curve...and in a way they are, compared to the masses. the masses go to see lady gaga or bruce Springsteen, while the middlebrow choice is, say, Radiohead. lots of "average" people who think they're the shit because they're into David Byrne as opposed to Taylor swift.
but I also know folks with middlebrow tastes who seem perennially insecure, conscious enough to see themselves as cultural imposters who might be able to talk a good game but deep down inside know they aren't actually on the cutting edge. they are the ones who are striving.
I know people with thoroughly middlebrow tastes who sincerely think they are in fact informed and, in their minds, ahead of the cultural curve...and in a way they are, compared to the masses. the masses go to see lady gaga or bruce Springsteen, while the middlebrow choice is, say, Radiohead. lots of "average" people who think they're the shit because they're into David Byrne as opposed to Taylor swift.
but I also know folks with middlebrow tastes who seem perennially insecure, conscious enough to see themselves as cultural imposters who might be able to talk a good game but deep down inside know they aren't actually on the cutting edge. they are the ones who are striving.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I would think middlebrow creation of art would by definition have to involve conscious - tho not necessarily well-articulated - striving
whereas having middlebrow tastes could be either
"middlebrow" is inherently subjective and its' defining element is one person disparaging another person's work or taste
while you see Radiohead or David Byrne as middlebrow, someone at some higher level of cultural erudition might view your, or my, taste as middlebrow
whereas having middlebrow tastes could be either
"middlebrow" is inherently subjective and its' defining element is one person disparaging another person's work or taste
while you see Radiohead or David Byrne as middlebrow, someone at some higher level of cultural erudition might view your, or my, taste as middlebrow
The Stockhausen thing feels like something a fair few people probably understand on some level, whether they agree with it or not, but which they feel they absolutely have to come out strongly against for fear of being branded and reduced to some sort of terrorist sympathiser. There's an old BBC profile of Ballard where he says as much. He's talking about terrorism then quickly states that no, he doesn't think it's a good thing because he knows a bunch of people will be like "Oh, this is the guy that loves car crashes. Now he loves terrorism!"
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
calling something else out - unprompted I mean, not as here when we're discussing it - as middlebrow implies insecurity about one's own art or taste
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
absolutely, and especially in the media political-emotional climate right after 9/11. as I said, he was a tactless fool in that regard.
There's an old thread on terrorism and the media, maybe we should revive it.
Terrorism/Media
Why is terror conveyed so much more easily by the media than by the actions of terrorists themselves? The news specializes in making fear quotidien even when there aren't bombs and murder. And when there are, all the news does is chart the spread of fear (terror) and thus spread it further than...
www.dissensus.com
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
even in context, the way he said it was indefensible. I'm sure the reaction was overblown, but he should definitely have known better.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
it's not a new idea, that there's no such thing as modern "terrorism" without a media to cover it
the Panther Moderns in Neuromancer, for example
or to bring in something topical (and thoroughly, deafeningly middlebrow), The Joker