Cancellations

[padraig (u.s.)]

without ignoring the many flaws of the official justice system, checks and balances are good things

 

[haji]

The thing is to me, the Bristol statue drowning, that is not cancel culture, or virtue signalling. Its the total opposite. Its not protest, its not marching down a street with a banner, its direct action. Its riot. And yes, it's so much more effective

Yes, maybe cancellation is the wrong terminology, but I know a lot about that campaign and it's amazing to see how Floyd/BLM protests catalysed effective change
that's the tool that we have at our disposal - we need to exploit it in these difficult times
and get over these lily-livered qualms about the mob

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

and get over these lily-livered qualms about the mob

they are not lily-livered qualms

I have a good deal of respect for you for multiple reasons, but go read a fucking a history book or two

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you're saying the same thing fools have been saying for 2000 years

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

protestors are not a mob - they can devolve into a mob, but they don't start out that way. it is not the same thing.

 

[catalog]

the point about it reinforcing the lines or whatever, I still think you're failing to make, no offense

OK, let me explain it another way. A lot museums and art galleries in the UK right now, they are all making statements about supporting black culture and artists and so on, standing in solidarity etc. So they will most likely point to an exhibition which they've put on, or plan to put on, which to their mind tackles these issues. So this art is typically always dealing with racism in some form or another. What I'm saying, is that this perpetuates that culture. Black artists should be able to do what they want, they should not have to respond to this agenda, set from above. It is the same boring stuff again and again, and it can rarely transcend to something more powerful. The terms of the engagement are restricting.

Does that make better sense?

 

[haji]

you're saying the same thing fools have been saying for 2000 years

so what are you saying - the examples you cited are all over 100 years old

 

[catalog]

Thing is, the mob does not have to be violent, what about non violent direct action, that also works. Yes the mob has this darkness to it, the blood list, all the people jumping on the statue, its weird, but it's effective, way more than walking down the street with a banner. And I don't know the ins and outs of that statue story, but I gather its been a really long running thing, they've tried to address it peacefully.

 

[haji]

things are radically different now than they have been for 2000 years. inthe ast 5 years we have been handed tools that make mass global protest (aka or not aka the mob) a force that can change society in a couple of days - that's what we have at our disposal right now

in fact it's a huge opportunity that we are constantly being told is not the right way to approach issues, but again and again we're seeing how effective it is

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the Russian Revolution. Nazi Germany. McCarthyism. Sports riots. anti-Muslim sentiment following 9/11. do I need to go on?

mob mentality isn't something that evolves over time

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

aka or not aka the mob

no that is not aka the mob

 

[haji]

Thing is, the mob does not have to be violent, what about non violent direct action, that also works. Yes the mob has this darkness to it, the blood list, all the people jumping on the statue, its weird, but it's effective, way more than walking down the street with a banner. And I don't know the ins and outs of that statue story, but I gather its been a really long running thing, they've tried to address it peacefully.

there's been no violence involved in the cancellations of epstein, weinstein or colston
where is the downside?
i think the ineteresting question is why it doesnt work on boris or trump, and how can we strengthen ourselves to make it effective

 

[catalog]

You need the mob and the legitimacy together, in a delicate balancing act

 

[haji]

the Russian Revolution. Nazi Germany. McCarthyism. Sports riots. anti-Muslim sentiment following 9/11. do I need to go on?

mob mentality isn't something that evolves over time

ok then stop talking about the mob or cancellation and actually think about the question?

 

[haji]

if you want to call it protest or whatever, how do we learn and exploit it?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

where is the downside?

the downside is when it's applied to people who aren't guilty, because someone has a grudge or an axe to grind or something to gain

the worse downside is when some nefarious force comes along and manipulates it for nefarious purposes

 

[haji]

I have a good deal of respect for you for multiple reasons, but go read a fucking a history book or two

likewise, i'm not sure why you're being so antagonistic

 

[haji]

the downside is when it's applied to people who aren't guilty, because someone has a grudge or an axe to grind or something to gain

the worse downside is when some nefarious force comes along and manipulates it for nefarious purposes

sure, but those are exceptions,
at the moment that's not what seems to be happening

 

[catalog]

there's been no violence involved in the cancellations of epstein, weinstein or colston
where is the downside?
i think the ineteresting question is why it doesnt work on boris or trump, and how can we strengthen ourselves to make it effective

I think its this issue of legitimacy, ie they fought and won elections, so they are on top of the pile through accepted means. It's important. Although clearly not quite what we need right now

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

if you want to call it protest or whatever, how do we learn and exploit it?

I don't exactly know the answer to that

I do know years of grinding day-to-day activist work in the last few years made this possible

along with the extraordinary moment - worst pandemic in 100 years, vast #s out of work, Trump, etc - which can't be replicated