Cancellations

[padraig (u.s.)]

sure, but those are exceptions,
at the moment that's not what seems to be happening

they are not exceptions. this is where the history books come in. so you don't repeat other peoples' mistakes.

you like where a mob is going today. you don't know where it's going tomorrow.

(if I'm antagonistic it's cos someone is dismissively going on about lily-livered qualms)

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

they are on top of the pile through accepted means

this is correct. you can't cancel elected officials. to remove them you either need to go through legal means (impeachment) or use force (coup, revolution).

 

[haji]

so what are our options?
we disengage? or we try to use the moment and the energy to achieve more of our goals

 

[haji]

or we keep on throwing in the same old tired objections like virtue signalling or how the mob is dangerous

 

[haji]

my recent historical readings have been about how the english and french revolutions maneuvered their royals onto the chopping blocks, neither journey was planned or predicatble
also https://www.brh.org.uk/site/pamphleteer/angela-carters-provincial-bohemia/ which i bought about 2 hours before t e bristol uprising toppled the statue
i do wonder whether the bristol protests involved any of the same people as the campagn

 

[haji]

this is correct. you can't cancel elected officials. to remove them you either need to go through legal means (impeachment) or use force (coup, revolution).

this is not correct

 

[haji]

elected and unelected officials can be cancelled - mass media/public opinion is an incredibly powerful tool to unseat them

 

[haji]

they are absolutely terrified and in thrall to publicity

 

[catalog]

so what are our options?
we disengage? or we try to use the moment and the energy to achieve more of our goals

You've got to seize the moment. I am looking with interest at settle autonomous zone. Yes, it might not achieve what it wants, but something productive might come out of it and at least it has come about through concerted action from below.

I think disengagement is noble but flawed, cos you inevitably support the status quo by not acting at all.

But I don't really know what to do beyond that.

I think the forensic architecture approach is what I find appealing, you muster all available evidence, present in a compelling, state of the art way, clearly defining the lies in the states actions. Organisations like that need funds to keep them going, and more should start up.

 

[catalog]

they are absolutely terrified and in thrall to publicity

I mean, the recent Cummings thing, it sort of proves this the other way no? Once they are in, there's a certain amount of leeway on popularity. Thatcher was unpopular for years, but continued to get the vote. I think popular opinion/publicity can be manipulated by the right spin doctor

 

[Mr. Tea]

elected and unelected officials can be cancelled - mass media/public opinion is an incredibly powerful tool to unseat them

Well it remains to be seen whether this has any effect on Mr Cummings.

Edit - cross post with catalog

 

[haji]

settle autonomous zone

that's in yorkshire, right?

 

[catalog]

that's in yorkshire, right?

Hah, yeah. I should go and start it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

It would have to form a pact with the Socialist Sapphic Republic of Hebden Bridge.

 

[chava]

The comments in this twitter thread below... I mean what's wrong with people? EB of course followed with a mandatory cringey confessional tweet. This is all over the place (twitter) now. Make it stop.

 

[haji]

You've got to seize the moment. I am looking with interest at settle autonomous zone. Yes, it might not achieve what it wants, but something productive might come out of it and at least it has come about through concerted action from below.

I think disengagement is noble but flawed, cos you inevitably support the status quo by not acting at all.

But I don't really know what to do beyond that.

I think the forensic architecture approach is what I find appealing, you muster all available evidence, present in a compelling, state of the art way, clearly defining the lies in the states actions. Organisations like that need funds to keep them going, and more should start up.

France Gilets Jaunes are an interesting manifestation of this protest mob action - scarily off the script of regular partisan politics
they created some change though, and havent been hijacked by bullies i don't think?

 

[haji]

they are not exceptions. this is where the history books come in. so you don't repeat other peoples' mistakes.

you like where a mob is going today. you don't know where it's going tomorrow.

(if I'm antagonistic it's cos someone is dismissively going on about lily-livered qualms)

P, i had to think about this for a bit ☁ of course there's a big difference between punching down and punching up.

Tomorrow in London the rightists are going to assemble, so we can see how their crowd scene plays out. in terms of numbers, activities, media and public reception ... Maybe that's the downside - i don't expect they'll get the numbers or anywhere near the credibility or impact of BLM, but we'll see

Our tools to"punch up" are so limited, people are on the streets already, we need to work out how to do this

 

[version]

i think the ineteresting question is why it doesnt work on boris or trump,

I'd say it's because this stuff relies on the person being cancelled and their facilitators accepting they were in the wrong. Boris, Trump, the Tories, the Republicans and their supporters don't.

I think I've mentioned it before, but Bill Burr pointed this out about Trump right at the beginning of his term. I dunno if it's exactly how it went down, but he used the example of a journalist pulling him up on comments he'd made about women and him responding "Nah, nah. I just said that about Rosie O'Donnell", them pushing him on it saying "No. You made comments about other women too though... " and him then going "Meh. You're probably right" and that was it. They couldn't really do anything because he refused to accept it was an issue. It only works if the targets cave to public pressure. See: Cummings. They just waited it out and now it's more or less over, he's still in power and everyone's moved on.

 

[version]

On the subject of virtue signalling, it's worth noting it isn't exclusive to progressives. The right do it all the time when they make a big show of publicly thanking people in the military for their service.

 

[haji]

I'd say it's because this stuff relies on the person being cancelled and their facilitators accepting they were in the wrong. Boris, Trump, the Tories, the Republicans and their supporters don't.

I think I've mentioned it before, but Bill Burr pointed this out about Trump right at the beginning of his term. I dunno if it's exactly how it went down, but he used the example of a journalist pulling him up on comments he'd made about women and him responding "Nah, nah. I just said that about Rosie O'Donnell", them pushing him on it saying "No. You made comments about other women too though... " and him then going "Meh. You're probably right" and that was it. They couldn't really do anything because he refused to accept it was an issue. It only works if the targets cave to public pressure. See: Cummings. They just waited it out and now it's more or less over, he's still in power and everyone's moved on.

yeah fronting it out can even make them seem even stronger
Dom's lost a lot of credibility, so has his boss, they took a kicking, lost the mail,
The press have this lead/follow role - they would love to run public opinion, but can be forced into positive positions too if the public are in the right mood