'structural'

[craner]

There was an interesting response to The Shock Doctrine by somebody from the very free-market Heritage Foundation that gives a good perspective on the gulf between the respective worldviews and their motivations. I'll find it now, half a tic.

 

[luka]

How does it happen in your view? That one set of ideas gains the ascendency for a time

You actually have to answer this question Craner. It's an important one.

 

[luka]

Shiels what did you study at university?

 

[luka]

Certain sets of ideas have powerful and wealthy patrons and go to war in the world

 

[craner]

Sorry, my mistake it was the Cato Institute:

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/bp102.pdf

 

[version]

The cynic in me says presenting this stuff as a binary choice between personal responsibility and structural issues is an attempt to prevent collective responsibility and organisation.

 

[luka]

The cynic in me says presenting this stuff as a binary choice between personal responsibility and structural issues is an attempt to prevent collective responsibility and organisation.

On who's part? Babylon?

 

[luka]

Certain sets of ideas have powerful and wealthy patrons and go to war in the world

And often, the ideas are just used as window dressing for realpolitik.

 

[mvuent]

I'm arguing that it does precisely the opposite. That it fills the space where that thinking would otherwise happen.

are you sure thinking would otherwise happen? the vast majority of people are pretty fucking stupid, including me

 

[shiels]

what's the question again?

 

[version]

On who's part? Babylon?

Yeah, I guess. Anyone with the power and inclination to do so.

 

[craner]

On who's part? Babylon?

It's true, though: "an attempt to prevent", again with the malicious, faceless agents.

 

[shiels]

Shiels what did you study at university?

guess

 

[craner]

It's a modern demonology.

 

[luka]

Neoconservatism for instance was a set of ideas which found powerful patrons who, according to Craner, eventually used those ideas for window dressing for a more brutal project and betrayed them. I think that's how the story goes?

 

[craner]

In my Letwin essay I touch on this, don't I? Thatcher became the Left's Great Satan.

 

[luka]

It's a modern demonology.

Yes it is, but I'm pushing you here because you seem to be implying things happen magically without any interests pushing for them

 

[luka]

guess

Marketing and communications.

 

[craner]

Neoconservatism for instance was a set of ideas which found powerful patrons who, according to Craner, eventually used those ideas for window dressing for a more brutal project and betrayed them. I think that's how the story goes?

No, in this case I said the patrons were captured by the ideas. The ideas were then destroyed when they were put into practice in Iraq. But that's only true if you focus on the post-Cold War, foreign policy-focused manifestation of neoconservatism.

 

[craner]

Yes it is, but I'm pushing you here because you seem to be implying things happen magically without any interests pushing for them

I don't believe this. I would say that interests are multiple, overlapping and contradictory, and are not controlled by a center. The same with motives.