Lorenzo Senni

[pattycakes_]

I love the smell of white academics deconstructing soul in the morning.

 

[luka]

No it's a matter of ethics. Do you want your emotions manipulated by music or not?

Or: it's a matter of information theory or cybernetics. How much excess info can your brain process and is it advisable?

Presumably we do want our emotions manipulated, we're just particular about how it's done

 

[chava]

Presumably we do want our emotions manipulated, we're just particular about how it's done

Yes, let's agree on a gentle approach

 

[pattycakes_]

Music (speech), by DJ Bone

from the album No More Heroes

djbone313.bandcamp.com

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

https://dissensus.com/index.php?threads/14400/#post-359731[/URL

[shrugs] I stick by everything I said in that post, besides cosigning your post's claim to some kind of special knowledge ("either in tune or not")

I don't claim any special knowledge for myself, or anyone else, or that depth is some universal truth, that's all on you

I say everyone is chasing transcendence in some form - which is exactly what I said here, that it's a personal matter

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

look

I'm sorry you (seem to) take this so personally. I'm not trying to put the whole weight of this nonsense on you, you're just the one taking the line here.

I'm not deconstructing anything, as you well know - I'm just explaining to you why your position about access to artistic truth is indefensible

which would be whatever

except it does exclude 16-year old Bartosz from Warsaw and anyone else who falls outside the [x authority's] definition of truth (soul)

if you want to walk back soul = truth, human, authentic, etc to "it's how I feel, it's subjective", great. if not, the incoherence is there for anyone to see.

if "soulboyism" bothers you, substitute whatever equivalent word or phrase doesn't

I'm done with it either way. I said what I wanted to say, I'm happy with it. if you or anyone else wants to get in last words, gfi.

 

[pattycakes_]

Did you read your other post a few posts down?

This isn't a personal argument, at all. The point isn't to convince you or anyone else to see it the same way I do. Soul without definition is clear as day to me. But I don't mind having a go at trying to thrash one out here. I can take what you have to say. Some of it makes perfect sense. The deconstruction comment wasn't supposed to be a dig, it includes me too.

 

[boxedjoy]

wow this is a really long and detailed thread about some truly mediocre music, I'm genuinely impressed by how even a charlatan like Senni can inspire such interesting debate and perspectives here

 

[pattycakes_]

His greatest work

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Did you read your other post a few posts down?

no, but I see the one you mean. where I literally say if you don't get it, it's "entirely possible you're just tuned to a different wavelength".

it's consistent with everything I said here. I always think of think and speak in terms of what art means to me, not what art means in general

how can there be any definition of soul in the way you mean it, as artistic truth or authenticity?

any more than there can be a universal definition of beauty? it will always be a subjective aesthetic judgment.

either it's inarticulable - in which case we can't define it. or it's some specific quality or qualities, which in case it's not universal.

generalized statements about art now being worse than it was, having lost some essential quality - they're always relative

art is never better or worse than in that way, it simply is as it is. there are no universal aesthetic truths.

it's a dead end, we're better off just moving on

I will say say that @IdleRich is correct that "soulless" is equally as meaningless as "soul"

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'm genuinely impressed by how even a charlatan like Senni can inspire such interesting debate and perspectives here

the greatest trick the devil ever pulled, as the saying goes

 

[luka]

The most interesting things to talk about are usually what people declare to be just subjective man or like you can't define it man it's just a feeling. Trying to find language for those feelings and non discursive, non verbal ways of knowing is the only game in town. Otherwise you are left with 'the facts' which, as we all know, are merely a pile of sawdust.

 

[thirdform]

to avoid confusion - we need to be clear about separating soul, the Black American artistic tradition, from soul, the supposed universal artistic quality

of course the former exists, includes James Brown etc - I have and would continue to place disco, house, etc in an "electronic black soul continuum"

but when I do I'm referring to a specific artistic-historical tradition with specific aesthetic signifiers, not some universal authenticity or lack thereof

if you want to say something does or doesn't have soul in that sense, yes, of course

right. cheese trance is not really soulful in that sense, or very distantly through moroder.

That is historically quantifiable. But what about 16 year old Bartosz? He has a heart, he has emotions. he has joy, and he has pain.

 

[thirdform]

don't know about you friends but I am not comfortable with the anti-Polish brexit sentiment in this country, Bartosz must be defended at all costs.

 

[luka]

It's the Romanians who caused Brexit. People had the Poles fitting their new kitchens.

 

[thirdform]

It's played with soul

hmm I'm not sure. usually it was played to make a lot of money, fund a mafia benefactor, and rip off a hit that a composer had written. that's why you'll get 10 versions of the exact same song, all coming out by different singers/production teams, all in the same 3-6 month duration. something unthinkable in UK/America, at least not to that extent.

 

[thirdform]

i mean America never state funded paramilitaries to chuck citric acid in taverna stars faces or get them shot in a range rover.

tbf Donald Trump is the only American president I vaguely rate, he thinks like a turkish/Italian gangsta mob boss, but because he's the least intimidating person he just ends up coming across as satire.

 

[pattycakes_]

no, but I see the one you mean. where I literally say if you don't get it, it's "entirely possible you're just tuned to a different wavelength".

it's consistent with everything I said here. I always think of think and speak in terms of what art means to me, not what art means in general

how can there be any definition of soul in the way you mean it, as artistic truth or authenticity?

any more than there can be a universal definition of beauty? it will always be a subjective aesthetic judgment.

either it's inarticulable - in which case we can't define it. or it's some specific quality or qualities, which in case it's not universal.

generalized statements about art now being worse than it was, having lost some essential quality - they're always relative

art is never better or worse than in that way, it simply is as it is. there are no universal aesthetic truths.

it's a dead end, we're better off just moving on

I will say say that @IdleRich is correct that "soulless" is equally as meaningless as "soul"

Fair. No further questions.

 

[version]

EVOL were Senni before Senni.

 

[thirdform]

music is ultimately a fantasy, or a myth, it's just a question of which fantasies are pacifying and escapist and which fantasies ground you and make you a frothing atthe mouth rabid dog rabies hooligan zealot in different ways. that's why it can't be truly real. even atonal stuff like coltrane, it's a universal overcoming. if music was truth it would just be drone, which is basically music for people who don't like music.