Suspended's thread

[sus]

The thread which follows does a decent job hinting at what "surrogation" is and what I mean by it (along with other neologisms within, such as "optikratics" and "selection games") but I am obviously very happy to field any and all inquiries, because again, it would be rather silly to read this book

 

[sus]

Feeling great... the Dudes are very supportive

 

[mvuent]

well, i haven't read much yet but here's an initial question. do you find that there's something unsettling about this surrogation topic? i.e. do you ever worry that these inquiries could yield great insight, but at the cost of some degree of mental wellbeing? i mean, it seems quite accurate to point out that there's a manipulative dimension to even the most warm, friendly interactions--but we've all had "manipulation = evil" drilled into our heads to an extent that can't be shaken out easily or quickly. so is there a risk (for you the writer and/or us readers) that mapping out this territory as heroically and lucidly as you've done will cast a shadow over normal life?

there was always a lot of free will vs determinism talk in my philosophy classes, and i have a similar concern there. determinism (in a loose sense) is pretty convincing to me on a gut level. but maybe believing (however erroneously) that you have free will leads to better outcomes? put it this way, i bet more jacked zyzz type guys believe in free will than are hardcore determinists.

 

[mvuent]

just thinking aloud here, again just a starting question obviously not the result of close engagement lol, sorry

 

[mvuent]

like your use of the phrase "degenerate play"

actually your one use of it on here a year ago should be an easy example for the forum to, uh, grasp

 

[RWY]

Feeling great... the Dudes are very supportive

That's all very well but is Dasha very supportive?

 

[sus]

I am indifferent to that waif

 

[Clinamenic]

I am indifferent to that waif

She should come to dissensus so we can turn her into a capitalist.

 

[shakahislop]

well, i haven't read much yet but here's an initial question. do you find that there's something unsettling about this surrogation topic? i.e. do you ever worry that these inquiries could yield great insight, but at the cost of some degree of mental wellbeing? i mean, it seems quite accurate to point out that there's a manipulative dimension to even the most warm, friendly interactions--but we've all had "manipulation = evil" drilled into our heads to an extent that can't be shaken out easily or quickly. so is there a risk (for you the writer and/or us readers) that mapping out this territory as heroically and lucidly as you've done will cast a shadow over normal life?

there was always a lot of free will vs determinism talk in my philosophy classes, and i have a similar concern there. determinism (in a loose sense) is pretty convincing to me on a gut level. but maybe believing (however erroneously) that you have free will leads to better outcomes? put it this way, i bet more jacked zyzz type guys believe in free will than are hardcore determinists.

its an interesting point (and i haven't read the rest of the conversation so god knows if this is actually what you're talking about). this strikes me as a primarily linguistic thing, the term 'manipulation' carries something negative with it. whereas we all know from experience that one thing that sometimes people are doing in a social interaction, especially if they're good at it, is trying to generate a positive affect through doing things that they think normally achieve that objective. you could call that manipulation. but there's other ways of describing exactly the same thing that don't carry that negative connotation. i wonder how that terminology plays out in eg pashto or whatever, people in that part of the world can be exceptionally skilled at this kind of thing. it's definitely something where i feel like i'm reaching to find the right term in english and can never find it.

 

[sus]

well, i haven't read much yet but here's an initial question. do you find that there's something unsettling about this surrogation topic? i.e. do you ever worry that these inquiries could yield great insight, but at the cost of some degree of mental wellbeing? i mean, it seems quite accurate to point out that there's a manipulative dimension to even the most warm, friendly interactions--but we've all had "manipulation = evil" drilled into our heads to an extent that can't be shaken out easily or quickly. so is there a risk (for you the writer and/or us readers) that mapping out this territory as heroically and lucidly as you've done will cast a shadow over normal life?

there was always a lot of free will vs determinism talk in my philosophy classes, and i have a similar concern there. determinism (in a loose sense) is pretty convincing to me on a gut level. but maybe believing (however erroneously) that you have free will leads to better outcomes? put it this way, i bet more jacked zyzz type guys believe in free will than are hardcore determinists.

This is the vibe I got after writing my most recent series of blog posts, called All Communication is Manipulation (ACiM). It's cool you got the vibe already from the Surrogation book though, since I see ACiM as a making explicit of the Surrogation frame.

I think it's a fair question, but whereas the only relevant differences between free will and determinism come down to how you view yourself, and how you blame others, it's sorta a limited effect and from a personal angle, the benefits are weighted on free will

Whereas the ability to competently read a social game, and accomplish your goals effectively within one, is I think very powerful

Here's an example from when I talked about this objection in a previous blog post, "Economics Thinking":

bad models actively break down friendship and social belonging because the relevant parties create, out of ignorance, dynamics neither party wants, or follow philosophies of sociality that are counterproductive to their real goals

“I don’t believe you.” Fair enough, an example: Maggie May never accepts her neighbors’ offers of favors, because she doesn’t want to impose on them. At the same time, she wishes she were closer to the people living on her street. She has a mental model of sociality where “favors” are what we say they are—the neighbor will go out of her way, making a small self-sacrifice out of kindness or felt obligation, and mutter her husband about. “No, I would never want to put anyone out on my behalf.” What has actually happened is that the neighbor has offered an alliance via a small “loan”—a gift given up front which sooner or later will be met by a gift from Maggie May; the pair will continue to do small favors for one another, and should they prove helpful, stabilizing forces in one another’s life, they may come to rely deeply on one another, becoming friends in the process. “My mother told me never to go into debt.” She was wrong—never go into a debt you can’t pay off.

 

[Leo]

I am indifferent to that waif

she's a Hollywood star now, doesn't have time for the mafia.

 

[sus]

its an interesting point (and i haven't read the rest of the conversation so god knows if this is actually what you're talking about). this strikes me as a primarily linguistic thing, the term 'manipulation' carries something negative with it. whereas we all know from experience that one thing that sometimes people are doing in a social interaction, especially if they're good at it, is trying to generate a positive affect through doing things that they think normally achieve that objective. you could call that manipulation. but there's other ways of describing exactly the same thing that don't carry that negative connotation. i wonder how that terminology plays out in eg pashto or whatever, people in that part of the world can be exceptionally skilled at this kind of thing. it's definitely something where i feel like i'm reaching to find the right term in english and can never find it.

Yeah so amusingly this has been my main schtick since January https://suspendedreason.com/tag/all-communication-is-manipulation/

Yes, manipulation is too loaded a term, no there isn't a better one not that I've been able to find

But I mean it basically as some people talk about language as pragmatic or functional. A concern with the effects created.

I do a lot of theorizing but the thing that seemed to be clearest or make it click for most people was telling a story of an average day in Spendo's childhood https://suspendedreason.com/2022/01/21/a-landscape-of-communication/

 

[Clinamenic]

Whereas the ability to competently read a social game, and accomplish your goals effectively within one, is I think very powerful

One reason I think your work here is interesting, and how it may be complemented by what I've called deneuroticization, is that it may constitute an offramp for certain psychopathologies and sociopathologies, should the person really commit to changing themselves.

Cause what I am seeing in my cursory understanding of your work, is a systematic handling of interpreting daily, minute social interactions, and an exploration of how this interpretation can vary and what effects this variation has. Some directions of this variation lead one to be prone to faux pas and cringeworthy behavior, whereas other directions lead one to be more with-it and down to earth.

And so learning to steer oneself through this interpretative space, may enable one to change otherwise ostensibly natural psychological conditions, and I suspect this may pertain to certain features of autism spectrum disorders.

 

[linebaugh]

do you have physical copies gus?

 

[Clinamenic]

Personally I experience certain features of ASDs, from what I understand, such as hyperfocus, social aloofness/removedness, disconnection from empathy, fascination with non-social activities, etc. I actually need to get a better understanding of the clinical discourse here, in case I'm misrepresenting ASDs.

Beyond ASDs, neurosis is perhaps more mutable by the conscious efforts I have in mind. Getting locked into certain psychological patterns, predicated on fixed interpretations of certain phenomena, is largely what I consider the basis of general neurosis (I'd also be interested to better understand the psychoanalytic discourse here, but I'm also trying to keep philosophy more at arms length).

 

[sus]

do you have physical copies gus?

Working on it

 

[linebaugh]

if you bring me a physical copy Ill read every word I can

 

[sus]

Re: Clinamenic's comments, I agree I think there's more leeway than people think for offramping sociopathic tendencies into practice of cooperative, positive-sum long-termism by pointing out that it is actually in their benefit. There are certain domains of relative anonymity and low personal accountability where sociopathy is a winning strategy, but in many areas of life, it's self-defeating: the narcissist or sociopath-lite winds up in hell by following short-term selfishness in a society that closely polices for defection.

 

[sus]

if you bring me a physical copy Ill read every word I can

Oh that's this week isn't it!

 

[sus]

Can't print in time sadly but I'll mail you a copy when it prints