Going it alone

[luka]

i grew up with rap and quite militant ideas of black cultural property and the need to protect it from exploitation. the famous chuck d line everyone qutoes about elvis etc. i quite like that. i think its necessary, that kind of active policing of the boundaires but like anything if it gets wrenched out of context, it gets stupid

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I think @entertainment would like to put words in my mouth to the effect of

"straight/white artists in general can't ethically borrow from marginalized cultures"

which isn't something I believe or would say

it's not a blanket statement, it's a very specific statement about two individuals - Bowie and Madonna

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Madonna's being as noted as straightforward a case of dubious pop exploitation as you'll ever find

 

[luka]

you could say, maybe constant escape might put it this way, that capitalism has squandered its resources and the need to have a white face pasted on top of the product is an inefficency and creates drag in terms of getting the product to the consumer.

 

[luka]

new products new markets new innovations new lifestyles.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the need to have a white face pasted on top of the product is an inefficency and creates drag in terms of getting the product to the consumer

sure

that didn't just magically happen - people from marginalized communities spent decades (centuries in some cases) struggling bitterly to have their experiences validated

but it's the hollow victory of overcoming discrimination to become...another consumer demographic

i.e. the long-running critiques of the commercialization of Pride

 

[entertainment]

I think @entertainment would like to put words in my mouth to the effect of

"straight/white artists in general can't ethically borrow from marginalized cultures"

which isn't something I believe or would say

it's not a blanket statement, it's a very specific statement about two individuals - Bowie and Madonna

you phrased it as them committing a conscious act of borrowing for the sole purpose of personal gain. if you can cast all other possible elements in that exchange things aside, then I really don't see what's stopping you from doing it other cases.

when i find most of white rap and dancehall appalling and cringeworthy it is because of my sensibilities not moral law. i think objections to cultural integration should be made on aesthetic grounds and obviously some of that comes from intuitive moral judgements but it's not like we can impose rigid laws to it like that.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

new products new markets new innovations new lifestyles

right it seems crazy that there was a time when capitalists and advertisers weren't concerned with or even actively avoided markets

woke capitalism is the logical extension of this obv

 

[luka]

we can't impose rigid laws but as we were saying earlier you have to be aware of these things as historically situated, contingent, to use a word Padraig likes. a lot of this stuff is informed by the particular nature of raqce relations and commerical exploitation in America over the last however many years. those "decades (centuries in some cases) struggling bitterly".

 

[luka]

what that might mean to you as a white artist, is, probably not very much, in terms of the decisions you might make, but it provides part of the context you operate in

 

[luka]

so the 'meaning' of what you do is informed by that context and that history, whether you like it or not.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

a conscious act of borrowing for the sole purpose of personal gain

nothing is "solely" for anything, ever, in any context

did they appropriate for personal gain? absolutely. were there other motives? of course. all personal motives are complicated.

you're the only one talking about laws

 

[luka]

when i think of Bowie and how much his music disgusts me and ennervates me and makes me feel trapped in a gnostic hell of brittle plastic i am thinking of mawkish seedy glam rock like this

 

[luka]

cheap nasty emotion.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

so the 'meaning' of what you do is informed by that context and that history, whether you like it or not

of course

obviously Bowie or Madonna can't be held responsible for the existence of heteronormativity or structural racism, generally or in pop

and you can't fault them or anyone for passively benefiting from those things simply by being straight and/or white (or anyone who passively benefits from any structural inequality)

but at the same time those things exist and everything they do exists in that context

to pretend otherwise is ridiculous

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

mawkish seedy glam rock like this

I'm amused to see you casually lump "Heroes" in with what most people consider his actual (mawkish seedy) glam rock

I think we himself would have agreed with "bitter plastic" tho

 

[boxedjoy]

Bowies exploitation of LGBT poses bothers me more because Madonna never (afaik) put a big question mark over her own sexual identity. She exploited the communities of course, but Bowie treating the act of gayness like artistic cosplay just sits so differently with me

 

[boxedjoy]

like, my everyday where I don't hold hands with my boyfriend in public for very real safety issues is not the same as Bowie going on stage as a wealthy and successful celebrity

 

[IdleRich]

In fairness he was sleeping with men before he was rich or famous.

 

[boxedjoy]

So am I